Episode 167

Choosing Wholeness in Relationships with Courtney Smith

Published on: 1st September, 2025

According to Courtney Smith, fear can send us “below the line” in relationships. When you act from fear, you end up scrambling for security, control, and safety–often at the expense of wholeness. In this conversation, Dr. Diana Hill and Courtney Smith, author of Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, explore ways to shift into more authentic relating. They explore how to stay grounded while connecting, how to notice when we are caught in a story, and how to become growth-oriented co-creators. Along the way, Diana and Courtney demo some of these skills in their relationship, in real time. This is a fun one, especially if you are craving deeper relationships–ones that meet you at the soul level. 

In This Episode, We Explore:

  • How to know yourself and another with one-eye-in and one-eye-out
  • Growth mindset in relationships
  • Shift moves to approach life from a place of safety
  • How to claim what you want, out loud
  • What’s really behind envy and what to do about it
  • False Refuges finding true security
  • The Power of Soul Friendships

Suggested Next Episode:

Episode 114: How To Build Secure Relationships In An Insecure World With Dr. Ann Kelley

Related Resources

Get enhanced show notes for this episode

Diana's Events

Connecting With Diana

Thanks to the team, Craig and Ashley Hiatt, and Benjamin Gould of Bell & Branch for your beautiful music.

Mentioned in this episode:

Wise Effort Book Idea Lab

 Do you wanna find out if your idea has the power to become a book? Join me, Diana Hill, and Jennie Nash, book coach extraordinaire, for the Wise Effort book Idea Lab. If you have a nonfiction book idea or maybe just the start of one, but you're not sure how it all fits together, what's the message? Who's it for? How would it support your career, your mission, your creative vision, and why is it so hard to just sit down and write it? We will help you clarify your idea, identify your inner obstacles, explore your target audience, and begin mapping a structure that you can build on. This is a live working session online. Click the link to learn more.

Wise Effort Book Idea Lab

Transcript
Speaker:

Dr. Diana Hill:

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How can you relate to

others at the soul level?

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That's what we're gonna explore today

in this conversation with Courtney

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Smith on the Wise Effort Show.

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Welcome back to The Wise Effort Show.

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This is Dr.

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Diana Hill.

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You know, we're all about wise effort here

and one of the places that we really need

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to engage in our wisest form of effort.

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Is in the arena of relationships, it

can be incredibly difficult to relate

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to one another in a deep way, in a

way that is courageous and authentic

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and really choosing wholeness in our

relationships, which is what the topic of

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Courtney's new book with Elise Lowin is

about choosing wholeness over goodness.

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Sometimes that's the case, right?

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We gotta choose wholeness, not just about.

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Being good to each other, but actually

what is it to be authentically, so

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fully present for another human being?

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Courtney Smith is an executive coach

and group facilitator who works with

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Fortune 500 companies and high profile

individuals to achieve and change and live

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in greater resonance with their values.

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She's a renowned practitioner and teacher

of the Enneagram Personality System,

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which she weaves into her coaching

methods as well as her integrative

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approach to personal development.

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Her work has been featured on The Goop and

Pulling The Threads Podcast, and she's the

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co-author with Elise Loin of the Workbook,

Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness: A

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Process for Reclaiming Your Full Self.

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I had the opportunity to interview

Courtney in person because she lives

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right here in Santa Barbara, California,

and we've been colleagues for a while.

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But this was really fun to take a

deep dive into relationships with her.

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We're gonna talk about my favorite skill

of all time when eye and in one eye out.

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We're gonna talk about speaking your

inarguable truths, shifting out of

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fear mode, and how to be a soul friend.

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You're gonna get a lot of tips, but

you're also gonna hear us and watch us

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modeling exactly what we're talking about

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in real time.

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We're gonna ride that edge of

relational uncertainty and relational

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risk and relational authenticity with

each other, which was really fun.

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Very few people are willing to go there

with me, and I was so glad that she did.

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It was rad to have that

experience with Courtney.

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She's phenomenal.

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Okay, enjoy this conversation

with Courtney Smith.

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Okay.

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Here we are.

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Courtney Smith.

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Good to have you.

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Thanks for having me, Diana.

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I'm excited to be here.

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So you have this radical approach to,

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these groups that you're running with

women, and I , had a few women in my

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life that were in your groups and I,

they would tell me over the past, like

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year or so, all these really incredible

changes that were happening for them

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as they're going through your program.

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And the whole time I was like,

I want to talk to Courtney.

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I wanna see what's about the magic

behind what she's doing in there.

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And now I learned that you have a book.

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That is mapping out a lot

of the work that you do.

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So I'm super excited about your book.

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Thank you.

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Very excited, but also just excited to

talk with you about some of Courtney's

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magic, that we can maybe spread to

other people that they could create.

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Courtney Smith: Ah, thank you.

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I should say that I came to Santa

Barbara, right before COVID happened.

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And, I had lived in New

York City for 20 years.

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and part of my journey there,

I had been a professional as a

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lawyer and also as a consultant.

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And then I took some time out, when we

had small children from the workforce.

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And during that kind of.

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Journey to the wilderness for me.

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I started working with a lot of personal

development and transformation tools that

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UL ultimately helped me figure out that

I needed to go back to the workforce.

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And then I ret transitioned

and came back as a consultant.

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And I brought a lot of these tools

that had worked for me to the

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consulting work that I was doing.

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And, so I do my part of my work

is in a professional context.

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But as part of my own unfolding in New

York City and part of my own work with

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those tools, I really began to deepen

my understanding of what it meant

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to be in community and the kind of

relationships that I was looking for.

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And so when I moved here in Santa

Barbara in:

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this intention of starting groups.

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but I was really curious.

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Like I, I really have a new definition

of what it means to be in relationship.

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And, I wanna find the people

who that resonates with.

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And, organically from there, I

started putting together these

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groups where, I think there's a

couple things that I'm doing that

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are pretty unique and different.

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The first thing is that, I really,

because it's in the community,

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I'm both a teacher and a prac

practitioner in the group itself.

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And so I try to run really clear lines

between when I'm teaching a concept and

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then I try to model and do the work right

alongside everyone else in the group.

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Some of that is for my own integrity in

terms of I'm still working on things and

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I gotta run this tool and I've got a lot

to learn, even as I have some mastery.

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But also it was because.

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I was working with people

that I'm in community with.

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And so it's a little bit

different than a therapist model.

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Oh, very different than a therapy spot.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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You cannot share your own personal stuff

that you're working through or be friends

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with anyone that's in your therapy group.

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But actually people are craving that.

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they want some of your

genius qualities right.

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In the group.

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But they also wanna

know that you're human.

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They don't want, people

don't want hierarchy.

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They don't want it.

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And it feels offput when there's some

like teacher that's, up here because you

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know behind the scenes at some point,

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Courtney Smith: just like everybody,

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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they'll find you out.

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They'll find you out,

and then they lose trust.

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So if you put up front, I'm

working through this, you don't

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have to dominate it with your

stuff, but it's really equalizing.

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And

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Courtney Smith: So that's a value of mine.

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And that's one of the things that I think

is distinctive about the groups is there

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are lessons and there are concepts, and

we can talk about some of them here.

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But it isn't a container of

the teacher is also a student.

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And, and I have some clear boundaries that

I run in order to make that happen, but I

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am very much practicing alongside people.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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What are those clear boundaries?

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Courtney Smith: Like

one thing is I'm pretty,

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there's confidentiality

boundaries for one thing.

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That are really strong.

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The second thing is,

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when I model.

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I'm very careful about what I choose

to model in terms of, I wanna show

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depth, I wanna show vulnerability,

and I want it to feel real.

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So I'm off, there's a lot of trust issues

that show up when you're talking in group.

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And so one of the things that I wanna

model is what does it feel like to

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be scared and to do something anyway?

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So I like to pick something

that's right on the edge for

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me where it's an issue that,

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I'm still in live action with.

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And at the same time, you can feel that

I'm scaring myself a little bit, in the

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courage it's taking to come forward.

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But at the same time, I have really

strict time boundaries on how long I'm

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gonna do that because, when I act as a

participant in the group, I want that

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just to be like one thread of many.

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And so I keep myself very time bound so

that the mic gets passed and everyone

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else does their work at the same time.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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but edginess is so important I think,

in groups when one of the suggestions

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that I make for folks is if you feel

your heart beating, when there's

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a little bit of a silence and you

feel your heart beating faster and

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faster, that is the sign to step in.

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That there, because then if you step in,

you're gonna ride a wave, an edge that is.

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Very beneficial for you 'cause

you're stretching yourself,

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but will be beneficial for

everyone so they can read it.

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There's an energetic, read on the

vulnerability of the human that steps up.

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And as a leader that's extra vulnerable.

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So I love that.

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Courtney Smith: I think another

example too is sometimes it's like

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me leading an exercise with something

that's going on in my own life, but

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some of it is also just modeling.

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what does compassion and.

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Humanness look like in response

to hearing someone else's going

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through something difficult.

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So there was one year, for example,

where I realized like I had a lot of

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issues around crying in front of people.

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And was worried what they thought.

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Worried I looked messy.

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Worried I like, couldn't be as cogent

of a communicator if I was crying.

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yet I was often moved by what

we were working on in group.

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And so part of the way I modeled for

that whole year with that group was

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if someone said something that moved

me and I felt myself coming to tears.

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I let myself come to tears.

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And I really went on this rebranding

exercise for myself, but ultimately

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for everyone else, that crying is

just a sign that I am fully engaging.

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In your, life, in your material.

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It's, my heart is open and it

actually makes me a better leader.

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It makes me a better listener.

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It makes me a better communicator.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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Yes.

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There's different types of crying.

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Courtney Smith: There's

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not that we've given any thought to this.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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There's that, crying, which is

open, aware, engaged, crying.

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I am letting it flow.

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Because crying is a form of communication.

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It's a nonverbal communication

that I'm connecting.

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I'm connecting to either something

you're experiencing, I'm experiencing,

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and then there's another form of

crying, which is one of the things

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that you teach around Victimy cry

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Courtney Smith: Uhhuh,

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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which is I'm crying to bring all

of the attention in on me uhhuh and

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have you all rescue me from whatever

it is I'm feeling in this moment.

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And I'm a, huge believer in that

first one, actually, the second

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one can be okay sometimes too.

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Sometimes we need to be like a victimy

cry, but the other form is, I'm not

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crying, but I'm just holding it back.

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I saw my son the other day.

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He was, he was actually crying like

he, he needed to cry and the facial

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contortions that he was making to

try and not cry was, were phenomenal.

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So we, we withhold our tears,

but this is all part of relating.

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So what you're doing in the

group is about relationships.

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And you said at the, very start,

you said, I'm learning about what

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it means to be be in relationship.

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So I wanna talk a bit about that.

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What are the skills that you

teach in group that are supposed

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to really be used in life.

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Group is a metaphor for life or

trying a practicing for life.

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Courtney Smith: All right.

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So I could talk for hours about this.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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I know I'm cereal.

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Courtney Smith: I love it.

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So I guess the first thing that I

wanna say is one of the reasons I

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think, the group is really important

is because when, like therapy is

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important, meditation is important.

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All of those other places

where we make contact with

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ourself are really, important.

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But when we try to make contact with

ourselves alone, then when we come

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back to regular life and we're now

in relationship, the trick is how

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do I make contact with myself and

be in relationship at the same time?

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What does it mean to do both?

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Be in relationship with myself

and in relationship with you.

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And so for me, the groups are this

laboratory where we practice, like

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what does it mean to be present?

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What does it mean to, be able to name

and be with my emotional experience,

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and be with you at the same time?

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So that's the first thing that the

group is about is, recognizing that

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we tend to do one or the other.

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we tend to either be totally

eyes in, as you would say, to

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two eyes in or two eyes out.

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What does it mean to have one

eye in, one eye out at the same

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time and actively practice that?

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The one eye in one eye out is for

me, the most fundamental tool in

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relationships that, that I can ever

have because I tend to go two eyes out.

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And feel what everyone else is

feeling and tend to everyone

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else's stuff and completely get

disembodied from what's happening.

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And I shut down my own inner world to the

point when I can no longer handle that.

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And then I just go, z two eyes in.

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And now you cannot access me.

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Like I am, like all walls, you

will not be able to get in.

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So getting to that, it's like getting

to that place where I have one eye

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and I'm noticing my own body, my own

breath, my own being that's here.

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And then, Courtney's here too.

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I'm toggling

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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i'm toggling That's happening right now.

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Real time as we're doing this podcast.

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One eye in, one eye out.

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Courtney Smith: I feel that.

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So that's the fundamental thing.

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The second thing is I really do

talk about, what Katie Hendricks

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calls your inarguable truth.

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and you alluded to it, inarguable

truths are the body sensations

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I'm experiencing, the emotions I'm

experiencing, and then the fact

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that I'm having a story or thought.

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The thought or the story itself is

not an inarguable truth, but it's

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true I'm having the story or thought.

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And once we start inserting in very

concrete ways, how do I share the

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narrative, the way I'm making meaning of

what's happening between the two of us,

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but to make it inarguable, I start saying,

Hey, I noticed that you're wearing shorts.

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That's a fact.

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The story I make up about

that is, ooh, are you cold?

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Like, how does she wearing shorts at?

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and I go off on this whole

thing, I would never wear shorts.

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I don't like my knees.

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and I'm like.

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And, those are all thoughts that are

just like running, like in a comic strip.

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And if I just share those without

the, Hey, my story is, or Hey,

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the thought I'm having is.

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We really now can get off, go off

the race, go off to the races in

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terms of debating the content.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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Okay.

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Can we stay on the shorts a little bit?

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' Because what another woman

wears, this is phenomenal.

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Like what another woman wears,

what she's doing with is her hair.

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What car she drives.

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What her kids look like.

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Whatever.

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Her house, is such a Petri dish.

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Courtney Smith: Yes.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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For story making.

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Courtney Smith: Yes.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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That then can either lead

to disconnection, right?

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Because it's hard to have a

conversation with me if you're

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thinking about your knees.

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Or could lead to connection.

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Like maybe I don't have something

about my knees, but I've got

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something about something.

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Or maybe there's a reason why

I just chose these shorts.

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They're, I was actually,

they're way too short.

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But the thing about these

shorts they were given to me,

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by my friend Anne van de Water.

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Ann, no, I don't know.

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She's phenomenal.

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She, She went on a minimalist spree where

she got rid of everything and lived on a

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boat and she gave away all her clothes.

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And whenever I wear them, I

connect to Anne and I'm like,

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oh, that's my girlfriend Anne.

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I'm like, wearing the

shorts for you, Anne.

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'cause you've got nothing.

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So there, if we can

actually name our story.

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Then we can connect.

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that's But as long as

we're in, it's right.

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Courtney Smith: You're reminding me

like one of the, one of the chapters

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in the book is all about envy.

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'cause this, the book is organized

around the seven deadly sins.

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But there's a whole class that

I actually teach around envy.

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Where in group we start naming

the things that we're envious

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of other people in the group.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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Yes.

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Courtney Smith: Which tends

to be forbidden territory.

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Like I'm envious that you have

such beautiful shapely legs.

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And then I get to think about okay, what

am I really wanting underneath that?

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It's not about Diana's legs, even

though they're beautiful, but what's

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that really telling me about myself?

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And once I speak it inarguably, then I

get to see how it's a mirror for me as

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opposed to getting into debate about con

where you brush off the compliment, right?

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Or you tell me your workout routine

or you like compliment something

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about my body or I start feeling

jealous and I don't voice it.

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Any other, like the dozens of

other ways we could take that.

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Once I name it in a way that's safe for

you to hear it and safe for me to express

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it, then I get to work with the material

and see what's really underneath it,

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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Right.

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Because my instinct or many

of our instincts is to rescue.

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And the way that we rescue is,

either we put ourselves down.

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You should see my ass.

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Whatever.

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Or we try and Oh, but your

skin is the most glowing.

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Beautiful.

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And then, and this is how we,

engage at this sort of surface

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level that prevents true engagement.

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and true ownership, right?

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Yes.

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True ownership.

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Envy is such a, it's such

a fascinating 'cause.

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It is that deadly sin.

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Like we shouldn't be, we from

early, earlier on, we're taught

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to not envy or to look away or

to feel that having envy is bad.

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I haven't think of envy as the

highlighting the thing within ourselves

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that maybe we forgotten or haven't

tended to, or that we wanna invest.

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Not like in the form of legs, but what's

underneath that in terms of values or

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underneath that in terms of something that

you are craving in your life in some way,

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Courtney Smith: Something that

there's a want in there that

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you have not fully metabolized.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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You haven't metabolized it.

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Courtney Smith: Come to clarity around

whether you've disowned it or whether

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it's something you feel is out of your own

reach, and so you've resigned yourself to

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not getting it, it's speaking to a deep, a

deeper want that you haven't metabolized.

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Dr. Diana Hill:

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So in a group you would go through

and you'd have everyone talk about

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what they envy in each other.

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You would,

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Courtney Smith: So we put that,

this was, that we'd been practicing

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together for over a year.

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It's not like we started that way.

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But we were really talking about,

one of the things, one of the big

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principles of the group also is

this idea of taking responsibility.

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And I would argue that one of

the, I talked about like the

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container of one eye in one eye out.

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The second thing I spoke about was

inarguable truths and various tools where

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you can communicate what's true for you,

but in a way that others can hear it.

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So that then you can actually have,

growth and dialogue in exchange.

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And one of the, goals of that exchange

for me is personal growth and learning.

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And so I'm very much of the mind, like

one of my coaches, her little like

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moniker at the end of her email is.

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our relationships are our greatest assets.

371

:

And you can think about that

superficially in terms of relationships

372

:

are transactions where we get things.

373

:

But I think the deeper meaning is

relationships are our greatest assets to

374

:

see ourselves and what is ours to do, what

is our path and journey to grow along?

375

:

And so when I hold that, I'm in

relationship with you, not a maybe

376

:

there's a transaction, there's a contract.

377

:

I agreed to come here at 11:50.

378

:

You're gonna put this on your podcast.

379

:

There is.

380

:

There is a transactional component and

at the same time, like there's something

381

:

I'm learning and gaining from being in

relationship with you in this now moment.

382

:

And so what are the tools I can

use to see what's here for me?

383

:

And so that idea of wanting or envy,

which would normally just be like

384

:

a tiny little thought that I might

throw away and to toss aside, actually

385

:

then can become the seed of something

really profound that I can take

386

:

away from this short conversation.

387

:

And if I have support, I can really work

on it and go for it in my, regular life.

388

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

389

:

The painful parts of

relationships have the most.

390

:

Opportunity for that growth.

391

:

The parts that we don't want to go to.

392

:

The parts that we wanna just shove

away, put under the carpet, not talk

393

:

about, and there's something about this

container of this group that you are,

394

:

creating an environment to encourage

people to go there to do that.

395

:

Learning the container

of it is very important.

396

:

So you can't just sit down at your dinner

table and be like, everyone share about

397

:

what they envy about their cousins.

398

:

And their friends, because

the container isn't there.

399

:

So that's that.

400

:

I just wanna say that before people

start trying out these things.

401

:

Courtney Smith: Totally.

402

:

And I really want, the envy class

403

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

404

:

at office meeting.

405

:

Courtney Smith: Envy is a, Ivy is

like class 16 or something like that.

406

:

So these are cool.

407

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

408

:

That's class 16.

409

:

Courtney Smith: People, Been

together for a long while.

410

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

411

:

So go back to, let's go to class three.

412

:

Before we go to class 16.

413

:

what's a class three?

414

:

Practice that you might do?

415

:

Courtney Smith: So, classes one, two,

and three are all about this inarguable

416

:

speaking, which I spoke about.

417

:

So I need to be able to

identify body sensation.

418

:

I need to be able to name

emotions and I need to make the

419

:

distinction between fact and story.

420

:

So those are classes 1, 2, 3, and I

consider those foundational to just what

421

:

does it mean to be present and then how

do I communicate presence with others.

422

:

What comes after that is once I have

some skills to like even locate where

423

:

I am in the now moment, I begin to

realize that part of the reason that

424

:

relationships are so activating and

triggering and thus like this Petri dish

425

:

for growth is because, I often get scared.

426

:

And classes four through 15 are

really about recognizing that human

427

:

beings are evolutionary designed,

evolutionary designed to be scared,

428

:

to be on the alert for things that

could compromise our survival.

429

:

And because of that, we tend to

scare ourselves all the time.

430

:

And when we do that, we really

default to, whether you wanna call it

431

:

lower vibration or you want it like

from a neurochemical perspective.

432

:

The circuitry that's running in the

brain is the lower level functioning.

433

:

But the idea is now I'm running the

relationship and what's possible

434

:

between the two of us through

a lens of how do I feel safe?

435

:

Which means I'm gonna show up and relate

to you in a way of this relationship

436

:

is about me feeling safe over here,

and that's all I can focus on.

437

:

And when I orient toward relationships

in that way, I lose the potential

438

:

for connection, creativity, growth,

curiosity, playfulness, intimacy values.

439

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

440

:

Okay, I'm gonna make it real right now.

441

:

What scares you or scared you

about and I'll share mine.

442

:

Courtney Smith: Okay.

443

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

444

:

Okay.

445

:

I'm throwing it to you first.

446

:

Courtney Smith: Okay.

447

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

448

:

What scared you or scares

you about showing up for this

449

:

podcast interview with me?

450

:

This is the second for

the listeners to know.

451

:

This is the second time we've done this.

452

:

And actually the first

one I was way more scared.

453

:

Courtney Smith: Oh, okay.

454

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

455

:

Of this one,

456

:

Courtney Smith: Uhhuh.

457

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

458

:

But this is the second time we've

done it because we lost the audio.

459

:

'cause I failed on the mic department,

which is a classic Diana move.

460

:

But what scared you or scares

you about this with me?

461

:

Courtney Smith: Okay, I like to

think of fear in three broad buckets.

462

:

Either I'm scared about my security.

463

:

Which is gonna be like something

materially bad is gonna happen to

464

:

me either physically or emotionally.

465

:

I'm gonna be scared because

of loss of approval.

466

:

So you're gonna think something about me.

467

:

The audience is gonna

think something about me.

468

:

You're gonna judge me.

469

:

Who knows what.

470

:

I could forget my train of thought,

and then maybe I come across as

471

:

stupid or those are approval fears.

472

:

And then the third bucket is control.

473

:

My need for control.

474

:

And so those fears would

be, I'm in your space.

475

:

We like, it's your mic, your audio,

you lo we lost it the first time.

476

:

I'm not in control of that.

477

:

What's gonna ha what's gonna happen?

478

:

So I, when I, when you asked me

that question, I go through and I

479

:

go, okay, I know I felt a little

nervousness like coming over here.

480

:

Can I just be with that little twinge and

flutter of butterflies in the stomach?

481

:

The fact that I went and checked

my hair and brushed my teeth

482

:

again before I showed up.

483

:

I thought about my outfit a little

bit and I can go, okay, Courtney, was

484

:

that a security, approval or control?

485

:

What was at risk for you?

486

:

And for me, this is about approval.

487

:

And, wanting you to, like me, wanting

you to respect me, wanting your

488

:

audience to like and respect me.

489

:

And of course that gets a little

activated, anytime we come forward

490

:

and, put ourselves, put our, put

ourselves out there and any way.

491

:

so that, that was, my fear today.

492

:

What about you?

493

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

494

:

I love it.

495

:

I, relate to the approval and control one.

496

:

The control one, I think, is newer

because in our first interview

497

:

you were such a ridiculous badass.

498

:

You knocked it so far out of the park.

499

:

And as I said to you, I was so sad I

didn't claim that, wasn't able to reclaim

500

:

the audio 'cause you were so good.

501

:

And and the control part of me is

like, how do we make that happen again?

502

:

Or also a little bit of like how

much I think you could, I could just

503

:

pass it all to you and you just take

the whole thing, Courtney, but then

504

:

am I losing control of my thing?

505

:

There's that like neediness to dominate

506

:

that can happen.

507

:

I think when we, when you have two

high power people in one spot, I

508

:

think we're both high power folks.

509

:

So that's the control.

510

:

And then the approval part.

511

:

Is similar to what you were saying of I

actually didn't prep much for this one.

512

:

I, wanted to just come in and be authentic

and so there's a bit of am I gonna say

513

:

something or do something that just sucks.

514

:

I felt like I sucked in my last

podcast episode, so I'm like.

515

:

I gotta re, I gotta regain their

approval because not everyone

516

:

is a, not everyone is great

517

:

And so there's a little bit of

that with, I was really into

518

:

approval with you and the last one.

519

:

And a lot of that went down after we met

and I was like, oh I remember Courtney.

520

:

We're just like humans and you're great.

521

:

So I'm, I don't have as much

of that need for your approval,

522

:

although I still would like it.

523

:

It's always there a little bit.

524

:

But I love those boxes.

525

:

And how interesting that, how

rarely it is the first true fear.

526

:

I feel pretty safe in this building.

527

:

We're not worried about

someone coming in or

528

:

Courtney Smith: Although I do find

on the security issue oftentimes and

529

:

we don't wanna feel certain emotion.

530

:

And so I actually put

that as a security risk.

531

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

532

:

Oh.

533

:

if you're gonna a traumatic one,

534

:

Courtney Smith: if hurt

me, if you're gonna hurt me

535

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

536

:

Oh, be rejected or,

537

:

Courtney Smith: Yes, exactly.

538

:

Or, you're, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna

ask you for something and then you

539

:

say, no, I have to feel disappointed.

540

:

And can I bear the experience

of being disappointed?

541

:

And we can feel this so

acutely with our kids, right?

542

:

they come home from school

and they've had a bad day.

543

:

Someone was mean to them, or, they.

544

:

The kid was not very nice and the

mama bear energy kind of comes

545

:

up I'm gonna call the parent,

or I'm gonna call the teacher.

546

:

I'm gonna quit my kid to make

sure this doesn't happen again.

547

:

And that's a security risk,

548

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

549

:

okay.

550

:

Courtney Smith: Of I don't think my

child, this shouldn't have happened.

551

:

My kid can't tolerate this, or

it's not okay that they felt

552

:

left out or hurt or excluded.

553

:

And then I react to try to make

sure that never happens again.

554

:

So I just wanna expand that security

definition because, actually I

555

:

think a lot of what we're trying

to do as we go through the day is

556

:

not feel certain emotional states.

557

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

558

:

We're, Tara Brach calls it, the Tara

Brach calls it the false refuges.

559

:

We have all these false refuges.

560

:

We're trying to find a refuge

from feeling that fear.

561

:

And that's the safety.

562

:

The seeking safety.

563

:

Courtney Smith: Yes,

564

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

565

:

Which is different.

566

:

There's a really classic, compassion

focused therapy line where they talk

567

:

about there's a difference between being

the man on the porch with his dog versus

568

:

the man on the porch with his gun.

569

:

One is seeking safety.

570

:

The other feels

571

:

Courtney Smith: Secure.

572

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

573

:

Secure.

574

:

And so we go to all these false

refuges of controlling our

575

:

kids, or Micromanaging our hair.

576

:

Controlling the podcast.

577

:

Whatever.

578

:

Courtney Smith: And I just loved

the example that you brought around

579

:

control because if both of us came

in here with this is my agenda.

580

:

I wanna make sure that I hit these five

tools and I wanna talk about the book and

581

:

that, and I could come in here like that.

582

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

583

:

Yes.

584

:

Courtney Smith: And you could come

in here these are the things I wanna

585

:

make sure get, I get accomplished and

I'm gonna, I'm gonna be in control.

586

:

I'm gonna be like, this is my podcast.

587

:

And then you would feel us

trying to hold onto control.

588

:

And that would be the tenor of this

conversation and it would have,

589

:

it would flow really differently.

590

:

And we would miss, we might

feel in control, temporarily.

591

:

Ironically, the thing that we're like

scared of experiencing, we actually

592

:

then like dial up to make sure we're

experiencing it, in that way of being.

593

:

But in any case, we would lose

the magic of co-creator of

594

:

improvising and my thoughts pinging

a thought over there for you.

595

:

And you coming to some new understanding

about the work you do because of

596

:

something I said or vice versa.

597

:

The warmth, the relaxed kind of,

who knows what's gonna happen.

598

:

And so that's an example of

when we're oriented around

599

:

fear and defaulting to fear.

600

:

That's what we miss out on.

601

:

And so the group is about practicing,

identifying how often we are orienting

602

:

from fear, and then once we see that about

ourselves, then there are a whole host of

603

:

tools we can use basically to internally

secure our own safety, either in approval

604

:

control or security, so that then we

have access to these other ways of being.

605

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

606

:

Let's do one tool to secure our

own safety, and then let's access

607

:

some of the other ways of being.

608

:

Courtney Smith: One way that I

like to secure my own safety is,

609

:

fear is actually, I think of fear

as the emotion that naturally

610

:

arises in the face of the unknown.

611

:

And fear left unchecked,

orients on safety.

612

:

What could go wrong?

613

:

What do I have to do?

614

:

All of the like extra attention and

vigilance that turns on the cortisol

615

:

that turns on when we are scared.

616

:

It defaults to paying attention to

making sure nothing bad might happen.

617

:

A shift move to actually secure our

own safety is actually, what if I

618

:

see the unknown also contains all

possibility, all opportunity for growth.

619

:

And actually I can't grow

unless I'm willing to be in

620

:

the presence of the unfamiliar.

621

:

And so now I feel safe because

my value is about growth and

622

:

possibility and curiosity.

623

:

That's what I'm really interested in,

rather than defaulting to some sort

624

:

of need for like for safety, actually,

my safety is my ability to grow,

625

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

626

:

right.

627

:

Courtney Smith: My safety is my ability

to learn and I can take fear and the

628

:

attention that comes online with fear and

now redirect it to what am I learning.

629

:

They,

630

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

631

:

it's directing it to an open field.

632

:

an open field.

633

:

An open field of awareness,

an open field of allowing,

634

:

whatever's gonna pop up, pops up.

635

:

I'm a gardener and it's always, the volun.

636

:

We call 'em volunteers.

637

:

The volunteers, the volunteer tomato.

638

:

I have volunteer sweet peas in my garden

right now that just decided to pop

639

:

their little heads up in the pepper bed.

640

:

They're gonna be the strongest,

they're the ones I'm actually watering

641

:

'cause they chose to be here, right?

642

:

And if you're so hypervigilant on the

fear and weeding every single thing

643

:

possible out in that bed, you're

gonna miss out on the Sweet Peas

644

:

that are the great strong volunteers.

645

:

'cause they just self germinated.

646

:

And the self germination is fabulous.

647

:

That's the creative flow that you're,

that we can experience with each other.

648

:

Courtney Smith: And for me the idea

is then, Even if something quote

649

:

unquote bad happens, if I really

trust in my ability to learn and grow,

650

:

I may not like that the

bad thing has happened.

651

:

In fact, I might really, hate it.

652

:

But there is a deeper part of me that

has like a deeper sense of safety,

653

:

which is it doesn't matter if something

bad has happened because I'm in charge

654

:

of whether I relate to it from a

perspective of learning and growth.

655

:

And that's my safety is my how I choose

to respond to it rather than this external

656

:

definition of safety of things need to

go my way or nothing painful needs to

657

:

happen in order for me to feel safe.

658

:

I now am sourcing safety from

something that is in my control,

659

:

which is the orientation I

bring to those external events.

660

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

661

:

That orientation sounds

to me like flexibility.

662

:

Be it, sounds to me like the, safety

is no matter, it's the improv.

663

:

Whatever comes at me, I can respond to

what comes at me in a transformative way.

664

:

I don't have to like it.

665

:

If someone is throwing something

at me That is painful or hard or

666

:

life, is throwing something at me.

667

:

There's a, there's, a danger in that.

668

:

Like it's always your responsibility to

have post-traumatic growth like that.

669

:

There's always like a little bit of that

kind of danger, but what you're really

670

:

arguing here is that your safety re

resides in your ability to respond

671

:

to responsiveness and your openness.

672

:

Which is the complete opposite of what

we've evolved to do, which is to close

673

:

down, get narrow, shut it all out.

674

:

Isolate from ourselves.

675

:

And that makes us actually quite less,

676

:

at it makes this risk

677

:

Courtney Smith: Vulnerable,

more vulnerable.

678

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

679

:

My son, who's learning how to

drive my little 15-year-old,

680

:

he's learning how to drive.

681

:

He went out with his driving instructor

and he came back and he told me, he

682

:

said, mom, the most important thing when

you're driving is that you stay loose.

683

:

So cute.

684

:

And he was giving me instruction

because he said, if, I let

685

:

you get in, the car with me.

686

:

'cause the driver instructor

got in the car with him first.

687

:

If I let you get in the car

with me, you have to stay loose.

688

:

You can't tell me.

689

:

Break, break, 'cause that will

make me tighten up and it's gonna

690

:

make me get into an accident.

691

:

So he was coaching me on the, how

important it is to stay loose,

692

:

especially in these high stakes settings.

693

:

Courtney Smith: I've got a 16-year-old

daughter who won't let me drive in the car

694

:

with her right now for that very reason.

695

:

So I'm really stay loose, resonating

with my own failure to stay loose, like

696

:

in the face of her, doing her thing.

697

:

But I do wanna, like what I mean that,

I do wanna be clear and I think you're

698

:

cautioning listeners also in a way that

we both get, like this idea of a growth

699

:

or learning orientation is not about a

spiritual bypass or not about this like

700

:

platitude of, everything has a reason.

701

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

702

:

Don't tell me this is an

opportunity for growth.

703

:

Courtney Smith: Exactly.

704

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

705

:

When I'm going through the worst thing

in my life, don't tell that to me.

706

:

Courtney Smith: Exactly.

707

:

So it really is I don't, I wanna

be clear that think having that

708

:

perspective is built upon this previous

foundation of actually making contact

709

:

with what's really happening for you.

710

:

Which is about uncomfortable

body sensations, fear, wounding,

711

:

disappointment, rage, deep grief.

712

:

Whatever the, what is actually, what am I

experiencing and can I be with that fully?

713

:

And after I've had a chance to

not resist it, now what do I want

714

:

to do to learn and grow from it?

715

:

So it's like a both and of, being

with and the flexibility of knowing

716

:

I can also, I'm not, beholden

to what I am what is happening.

717

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

718

:

I can keep my bed open

for the possibility.

719

:

That something's gonna pop up here.

720

:

I do not know, I don't have choice around

what that is, but there will be growth.

721

:

There will be some form of growth.

722

:

So that's the safety, finding safety,

That was the, I said one thing.

723

:

Of course we extrapolate.

724

:

But that's how we find safe.

725

:

We see the possibility.

726

:

We open to the possibility and the fear.

727

:

As opposed to seeking

safety by closing down.

728

:

And then, once that's there, the

creative process, what are some tools

729

:

and skills that you do in these groups

or you've worked on with yourself to

730

:

support the creative process of growth?

731

:

Courtney Smith: So one of 'em we've

already touched upon, which is

732

:

really trusting that knowing your

wants and articulating your wants

733

:

is one of the ingredients that is

vital in the co-creator process.

734

:

And so I like to think of it as there's

this river of reality that's like

735

:

flowing and sometimes we go passive and

limp and we just let the river take us.

736

:

And then sometimes we like

put up a big dam and we insist

737

:

on it going a certain way.

738

:

And what we're looking for is the

middle way of I'd like to make an

739

:

offering through my wanting of where

I wanna dance with reality also.

740

:

And I'd like my want

to be a thread in that.

741

:

And like of all the infinite

potentialities that could happen in

742

:

this now moment, I'm open to all of

them, but I wanna name the one that

743

:

feels most resonant and alive to me.

744

:

And I, part of why we do that in group

is if I really believe that my wants are

745

:

important, and not only just the actual

want, but the respect for my wanting.

746

:

Like what happens when I think of myself,

who is a creator who has wants, who has,

747

:

sovereignty to articulate them?

748

:

What if I also relate to you the same way?

749

:

And you're not an object here to get me

what I want, but actually what are your

750

:

wants also, and can we trust that we can

find a way to get all of those wants met?

751

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

752

:

Okay, let's do it.

753

:

Courtney, you're like, just

throwing me the perfect pitch here.

754

:

So what are some of your wants right

now in, in your life as a creator?

755

:

Courtney Smith: I'm really excited

to have more people hear my work.

756

:

That's really, lighting me up,

757

:

like planting seeds with

as many people as possible.

758

:

And then, seeing what

resonates and, who responds.

759

:

That's, a want of mine right now.

760

:

What's one of yours?

761

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

762

:

I have a want for

763

:

more ease and flow of the energy, the

tremendous amount of life force energy

764

:

that I have inside of me for it to

flow with with less obstruction, with

765

:

less busyness and micromanaging and

forcefulness, and this goes here and

766

:

that goes there for it just to be a true

offering that is sent out and that is

767

:

helpful to the people that I offer it

to and is also regenerative back to me.

768

:

Just clean, clear flow with less effort.

769

:

Courtney Smith: Beautiful.

770

:

And as part of this conversation is

there anything I could do to help

771

:

you feel more flowy and useful?

772

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

773

:

I'm actually really feeling it right now.

774

:

Huh.

775

:

Great.

776

:

And I feel the flow with you.

777

:

I feel that there's not a lot of

effort in our, we're just co-creating.

778

:

And I'm also feeling you using

your voice and sharing your gifts.

779

:

Like I'm, receiving the gift of

that want that you just described.

780

:

Is there anything I can

do to support your want of

781

:

Courtney Smith: No, I, just being here

has been, is, exactly what I wanted.

782

:

And I appreciate you having me.

783

:

And I, I guess that's the other

thing that I'm really, wanting is

784

:

I love collaboration, and the magic

that comes from co-creatorship.

785

:

And for me, putting things out there and

then not getting the feedback loop, is a,

786

:

I can do it, but it's not my preference.

787

:

I really do to feel the dynamic

energy, whether it's with someone in

788

:

a podcast or in a classroom setting.

789

:

I really, so I appreciate getting to talk,

not just the podcast, but I get to talk

790

:

to you who I have, so much respect for

791

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

792

:

The collaborative process.

793

:

There's the fear that

blocks the collaboration.

794

:

Because I think, at least for

me, I love collaboration and

795

:

I'm scared of collaboration.

796

:

'cause of those two fears, approval and

control, approval and control can real,

797

:

can be real barriers to collaboration.

798

:

Courtney Smith: I know.

799

:

And then we could have some fun, if we

were to do this again or do some other

800

:

thing, like when we could really name

those parts of ourselves that wanna

801

:

control or start thinking about approval

and like we could really out ourselves

802

:

and that would be part of our agreement

in terms of how we collaborate, is

803

:

we have a commitment to, owning when

we feel scared and, playing with it.

804

:

Not making it a problem but playing with

it so that then it, doesn't stick to

805

:

what we're trying to have, what we wanna

have happen, what we, what could happen.

806

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

807

:

That's true.

808

:

Relating, right?

809

:

that's like the deeper relating when

we can just own it and put it on

810

:

the table and say it's here again.

811

:

Oh, here it is again.

812

:

I, I have a good friend that we

just, we did this little ceremony

813

:

with, it was a Kalyana Mitta Do

you, heard the Kalyana Mitta?

814

:

No.

815

:

No, because I was like, we're

friends, but we're more than friends.

816

:

We're spiritual friends.

817

:

And the, Kalyana Mitta is this,

it's metta, it's a teaching from

818

:

the Buddha that, that monks.

819

:

When they become brothers, they become

spiritual friends to each other.

820

:

Courtney Smith: Oh, amazing.

821

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

822

:

And it has these seven qualities to it.

823

:

Courtney Smith: Oh.

824

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

825

:

And the qualities are, we

endure what's hard to endure.

826

:

We give what's hard to give.

827

:

We tell our secrets.

828

:

We keep each other's secrets.

829

:

When one of us is down and out, we

don't look down on the other person.

830

:

And,

831

:

I forgot the other two, but I did

pretty good with five of seven.

832

:

five of seven.

833

:

So the other two are the ones

I'm probably not great at doing.

834

:

But, that sort of concept of

that's what, that's the kind of

835

:

relating I wanna be in with people.

836

:

I wanna be in the edginess and not the the

fake false relating, which is what most of

837

:

us are trained up to do when we stay in.

838

:

the sort of the light talk.

839

:

Not that every talk has to be

deep talk, but I like it if it is.

840

:

Courtney Smith: And that's one of the

things that's the, opportunity, but then

841

:

also the danger of relationship period is,

842

:

because relationships, there's

the opportunity for such

843

:

intimacy and the opportunity to

care and love for one another.

844

:

I really talk about this as are

our soul, are we are our egos

845

:

friends or our souls friends?

846

:

And when there's a soul contract, I'm

actually here in service of your soul and

847

:

I have to risk maybe you not liking me

or you going away or making you angry.

848

:

I might even have to risk our

ego friendship for the sake of

849

:

being in service of your soul?

850

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

851

:

Geez.

852

:

We've had friends like that, haven't we?

853

:

Soul friends?

854

:

I remember my first one

was in, high school.

855

:

She was my college roommate

in high school, Liz.

856

:

I was so anorexic.

857

:

And she told on me.

858

:

She told on me.

859

:

She said, "Diana is, like she's faking it.

860

:

She's drinking water when she, 'cause I

was getting weighed, she's drinking water.

861

:

And I remember I hated her.

862

:

I was like, I hate you Liz.

863

:

Our friendship is over, blah, blah, blah.

864

:

And she just looked at me and I could

see the little terror in her eyes,

865

:

but she was my soul friend, that was

there to speak the truth and probably

866

:

was part, of the whole saving of

my life was to be that soul friend.

867

:

So sometimes we need to be a soul friend.

868

:

And call each other out on

stuff or not allow something

869

:

to continue That's happening.

870

:

Or discontinue re rescuing.

871

:

People from their stuff, we're just

like, I'm being an ego friend by rescue

872

:

you from your bad feeling all the time.

873

:

And you're calling me up and I'm

just like the rescue machine.

874

:

That's not, soul friend.

875

:

Courtney Smith: And I, so

I'm, that's a beautiful story.

876

:

I'm like, I wanna.

877

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

878

:

Liz,

879

:

Courtney Smith: where I

wanna send like a, want you

880

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

881

:

to connect.

882

:

I'm gonna call Liz.

883

:

Courtney Smith: I wanna, I wanna

have a moment of appreciation for,

884

:

that very courageous act so long ago.

885

:

But that's exactly what I'm talking about.

886

:

and what happens with relationships

is we get attached and we

887

:

don't wanna risk approval loss.

888

:

And we don't wanna, there's

often security that gets put at

889

:

risk when we end relationships.

890

:

And so those fears can keep us

attached and in relating patterns

891

:

that are more about fear rather than

about these bigger possibilities.

892

:

And so that's always like the

knife edge with relationship is

893

:

am I, have I become so close to

you that now I've lost candor, I've

894

:

lost taking responsibility, I've

lost, saying uncomfortable things.

895

:

I've lost my own truth.

896

:

All the things that can happen in

relationship with people we care so

897

:

deeply about because we are attached.

898

:

But then there's such upside to being

in those relationships because, we don't

899

:

have soul contracts with the dry cleaner.

900

:

It, there are certain, 'cause there's

real commitments in terms of practice,

901

:

and ways of relating to one another

that support that kind of agreement.

902

:

And so I have a handful of people

where we explicitly, like I have

903

:

a really good friend and she

is working on her wanting and,

904

:

I don't strong arm her into

going to things the way you

905

:

might with like other friends.

906

:

"Could you please come with me to this?

907

:

Oh, this would mean so much to me."

908

:

I sometimes I really want

her to go to something, but I

909

:

have this deeper commitment.

910

:

Like no, I know she's working on

like owning her own authentic wants.

911

:

And if that means she doesn't come

to this party with me, that's on me.

912

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

913

:

Because as a soul friend,

you're honoring their soul.

914

:

Courtney Smith: I know her path.

915

:

I know her journey.

916

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

917

:

I know, where your soul is at right now.

918

:

I'm not gonna push on it too hard.

919

:

I know that you doing the work

that you need to do and I see that.

920

:

Courtney Smith: Thank

you for telling me no.

921

:

That probably took a lot of courage.

922

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

923

:

Totally.

924

:

Courtney Smith: I want

to support that in you.

925

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

926

:

It's so good to have soul friends.

927

:

Courtney Smith: So the group is

really about what are the commitments

928

:

and tools that you have to have in

relationship, in order to really

929

:

have, not just be able to say that

aspirationally, but be able to practice

930

:

that knowing you're gonna fall down.

931

:

Make mistakes all the time.

932

:

but what are the tools that

really allow you to do that?

933

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

934

:

Okay.

935

:

So I wanna highlight just

the ones we talked about.

936

:

You're an attorney so you can, like I

know your brain is tracking all of them.

937

:

I track all of it too.

938

:

Courtney Smith: So funny.

939

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

940

:

So I wanna highlight the ones that we

talked about and then I want to also

941

:

just talk about your book because not

everyone can come to your group in Santa

942

:

Barbara, although everyone wants to.

943

:

but then I also wanna talk about

this workbook and and what's in

944

:

there that people are gonna get.

945

:

'cause they're gonna get pieces of

this to be able to do some of this

946

:

work in group or in by themselves.

947

:

Okay, so we talked,

948

:

Courtney Smith: We started out,

with one eye in one eye out, and

949

:

some tools for knowing oneself

while being in relationship.

950

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

951

:

Yes.

952

:

Courtney Smith: We talked about inarguable

speaking and those two are related.

953

:

inarguable speaking, which is

about knowing body sensation,

954

:

knowing emotions, and being able to

distinguish between fact and story.

955

:

We talked about,

956

:

seeing fear when it's at play.

957

:

And the distinction I'll make is when

I'm scared, life's happening to me.

958

:

When I am in creator or like looking,

going after values, connection, intimacy,

959

:

et cetera, life's happening for me.

960

:

And so the being able to discern

like my location, where am I?

961

:

And then shift moves to approach

life from a place of safety.

962

:

And there we talked about like

a learning growth mindset.

963

:

We talked about wanting.

964

:

We talked about, naming like

some, a playful, like catching

965

:

ourselves in the act with one

another and being playful about it.

966

:

And we also talked about, co-creatorship

and the idea that it's not just

967

:

my wanting, but it's trust that

we can collaborate together,

968

:

and really seeing, I use the

word allyship, even though

969

:

I know that's gotten, that's

a loaded word at this point.

970

:

But this idea of soul contracts,

971

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

972

:

soul friends.

973

:

Spiritual friends Kalyana

Mitta that's a guy.

974

:

Whatever you wanna call it.

975

:

Courtney Smith: I wanna

go look at that up.

976

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

977

:

Might go Kalyana Mitta it.

978

:

Courtney Smith: I'm going to.

979

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

980

:

And this is your real genius, Courtney.

981

:

You're, you have the capacity

to have the attorney mind that

982

:

can organize all this material.

983

:

This is complex, deep material and

make it the way you just made it.

984

:

Like we talked about this, we talked

about this, we talked about this.

985

:

But then you have the capacity

to do it, to demo it to very few

986

:

people could do this with me.

987

:

What we just did to go there and do

it while you're talking about it.

988

:

So we were moving in and out of

doing it and talking about it.

989

:

And that's the probably the magic of

your roots that you're doing that.

990

:

Oh, thank you.

991

:

Toggling,

992

:

Courtney Smith: thanks.

993

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

994

:

True genius energy in this space.

995

:

I'm super excited for you.

996

:

Courtney Smith: Thank you.

997

:

Dr. Diana Hill:

998

:

Super fun.

999

:

You

:

00:53:45,395 --> 00:53:45,405

Courtney Smith: thanks.

:

00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:46,681

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:53:46,681 --> 00:53:50,220

And, then this gets manifested

into this workbook, so tell

:

00:53:50,220 --> 00:53:51,090

us a little bit about that.

:

00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:51,180

Okay.

:

00:53:51,180 --> 00:53:52,500

Because everyone wants to

go get your workbook now.

:

00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:52,770

Courtney Smith: Okay.

:

00:53:52,810 --> 00:53:56,110

the workbook is called Choosing

Wholeness Over Goodness.

:

00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:59,140

And it is a companion guide.

:

00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:05,170

my coauthor and friend, Elise Lowen wrote

a book called On Our Best Behavior that

:

00:54:05,170 --> 00:54:09,910

came out several years ago, and it was

using the construct of the seven deadly

:

00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:17,140

sins, but through a secular perspective to

really identify and explore, the various

:

00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:23,140

stories women have internalized about what

it means to be in quotes, a good woman.

:

00:54:24,130 --> 00:54:26,050

What are our stories about femininity?

:

00:54:26,995 --> 00:54:29,185

And, specifically in the

domains around gluttony and

:

00:54:29,185 --> 00:54:31,705

body image, lust and sexuality.

:

00:54:32,155 --> 00:54:40,405

Pride and ambition, sloth and rest, envy

and wanting, greed or money and anger.

:

00:54:41,785 --> 00:54:46,945

And the book was a bestseller

and really I think a lot of the

:

00:54:46,945 --> 00:54:50,875

audience responded with, you're

naming something I didn't realize I

:

00:54:50,875 --> 00:54:54,145

had an intern, I had internalized,

I thought I was through this.

:

00:54:55,915 --> 00:54:57,445

But it's actually quite pernicious.

:

00:54:57,445 --> 00:54:59,065

Now what do I do about that?

:

00:54:59,545 --> 00:55:04,765

And so the workbook is a lot of the

tools that we just spoke about, but

:

00:55:04,765 --> 00:55:09,865

they are applied specifically to

the context of the stories you've

:

00:55:09,865 --> 00:55:12,745

inherited in any of those domains.

:

00:55:13,195 --> 00:55:21,655

With the opportunity to release and let go

of one of those stories and then reclaim.

:

00:55:22,180 --> 00:55:26,170

A new way of thinking about your

relationship to anger, pride, wanting,

:

00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:30,820

money, sexuality, or body image,

but through a more self-authored

:

00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:35,740

this is actually my truth, rather

than one that I received culturally.

:

00:55:36,970 --> 00:55:36,971

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:55:36,971 --> 00:55:37,360

Beautiful.

:

00:55:38,350 --> 00:55:40,870

I am still waiting for this

book to arrive at my doorstep.

:

00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:42,130

I wanna see it.

:

00:55:42,265 --> 00:55:42,465

I want,

:

00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:42,940

Courtney Smith: okay.

:

00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:43,001

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:55:43,001 --> 00:55:45,190

I will be the first to talk

about it as soon as it arrives.

:

00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:45,430

Courtney Smith: Oh, thank you.

:

00:55:45,430 --> 00:55:45,431

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:55:45,431 --> 00:55:46,780

And I'm gonna work my way through it.

:

00:55:46,810 --> 00:55:47,230

Okay.

:

00:55:47,380 --> 00:55:50,105

I'm super excited about the

workbook, which is called.

:

00:55:51,025 --> 00:55:53,245

Courtney Smith: Choosing

wholeness over goodness.

:

00:55:53,245 --> 00:55:53,246

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:55:53,246 --> 00:55:55,135

Choosing wholeness over goodness.

:

00:55:55,435 --> 00:55:56,125

Go order it.

:

00:55:56,215 --> 00:55:59,305

And if you're in Santa Barbara and

you're a lucky few, you might get

:

00:55:59,305 --> 00:56:00,685

access to Courtney Smith's group.

:

00:56:00,955 --> 00:56:04,075

But I imagine this is just gonna

grow because that is your want for

:

00:56:04,075 --> 00:56:06,355

it to be a seed that feeds many.

:

00:56:06,685 --> 00:56:09,985

And, we're gonna continue to see where

that goes for you because it's gonna be

:

00:56:10,375 --> 00:56:12,235

wild and wonderful and all of its forms.

:

00:56:13,195 --> 00:56:13,775

Thank you, Courtney.

:

00:56:13,775 --> 00:56:13,805

Courtney Smith: Aw, thank you.

:

00:56:13,945 --> 00:56:13,946

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:56:13,946 --> 00:56:16,405

Thank you, honor and delight

to spend the hour with you.

:

00:56:16,495 --> 00:56:17,365

Courtney Smith: I love being here too.

:

00:56:17,710 --> 00:56:18,070

Thank you.

:

00:56:22,390 --> 00:56:22,391

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:56:22,391 --> 00:56:26,290

Thank you so much for listening to this

episode of the Wise Effort podcast.

:

00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:29,620

Wise effort is about you taking

your energy and putting it in the

:

00:56:29,620 --> 00:56:31,180

places that matter most to you.

:

00:56:31,660 --> 00:56:35,740

And when you do so you'll get to savor

the good of your life along the way.

:

00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,950

If you would like to become

a member of the Wise Effort

:

00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:41,830

podcast, go to wise effort.com.

:

00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,040

And if you liked this episode and it

would be helpful to somebody, please

:

00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,000

leave a review over at Podchaser.

:

00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:50,880

I would like to thank my team, my

partner, in all things, including

:

00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,770

the producer of this podcast, Craig.

:

00:56:53,310 --> 00:56:55,260

Ashley Hiatt, the podcast manager.

:

00:56:55,530 --> 00:56:58,330

And thank you to Ben Gould at

Bell and Branch for our music.

:

00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,140

This podcast is for informational

and entertainment purposes only.

:

00:57:02,190 --> 00:57:05,070

And it's not meant to be a substitute

for mental health treatments.

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    About the Podcast

    Wise Effort
    The Science and Practice of Putting Your Energy Where It Matters Most
    Wise Effort with Dr. Diana Hill is a show about how to live wisely.

    You’ll learn how to put your energy into places that matter most to you while making a difference in the world.

    This show is for you if:
    ...you’re a high achiever feeling burned out from tasks that don’t matter.
    ...you want to invest your energy in fulfilling and sustainable ways.
    ...you seek holistic living without the pressure of a rigid wellness checklist.
    ...you care about your physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health.
    ...you appreciate science but are open to exploring spirituality and contemplative practices.
    ...you have an open, beginner’s mind.
    ...you believe there’s a better way to live and are ready to apply your wisdom.

    We don’t have to burn ourselves out or engage in things that are not worth it. We can put our energy where it matters most and savor the good along the way.

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    About your host

    Profile picture for Diana Hill

    Diana Hill

    Diana Hill, PhD is a clinical psychologist, international trainer and sought-out speaker on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and compassion. Host of the podcast Wise Effort with Dr. Diana Hill and author of The Self-Compassion Daily Journal, The ACT Daily Journal, and the upcoming book Wise Effort, Diana works with organizations and individuals to develop psychological flexibility so that they can grow fulfilling and impactful lives.

    Integrating her over 20 years of meditation experience with yoga and psychological training, Diana guest teaches at InsightLA, Blue Spirit Costa Rica, PESI, Praxis Continuing Education, Yoga Soup and Insight Timer Meditation. She is on the board for the Institute for Better Health, and blogs for Psychology Today and Mindful.org. Diana practices what she preaches in her daily life as a mom of two boys and bee guardian. Go to drdianahill.com or her channels on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube (@drdianahill) to learn more.