Episode 156

Music as a Spiritual Practice with Toad the Wet Sprocket's Glen Phillips

Published on: 9th June, 2025

What do you do when the thing you love—your art, your work, your creativity—starts feeling like a product? When the metrics of success get louder than the pulse of your own heart? In this episode, I sit down with Glen Phillips—lead singer of Toad the Wet Sprocket and a longtime Santa Barbara creative—for a conversation that meanders, deepens, and opens up space for something honest and healing. Glen shares how his music career took off at age 16, how he lost his way chasing the industry’s definition of “enough,” and how he found his way back—through community song, spiritual practice, Tuesday night yoga class, and a kind of effort that doesn’t grind, but flows.

Suggested Next Episode:

Episode 110: In This Moment You Are Enough with Ofosu Jones-Quartey

Related Resources

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Thanks to the team, Craig and Ashley Hiatt, and Benjamin Gould of Bell & Branch for your beautiful music.

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Transcript
Diana Hill:

How can we find the sacred, the spiritual, the

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connection in our creative pursuits?

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That's what we're gonna explore today

with Glen Phillips from Toad, the

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Wet Sprocket on the Wise Effort Show.

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Welcome back.

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I'm Dr.

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Diana Hill, clinical psychologist,

and this is The Wise Effort Show.

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It's all about your genius energy,

how you are using it, misusing it,

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and how to redirect it with wisdom so

that your creative force, your life

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force, can be shared with the world.

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And there's something that I've been

noticing in myself recently and my

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clients and my friends, it's not

exactly new, but it's this pull that

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I feel a pull back to community, a

pull back to creativity, a pull back

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to making things just to make them.

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And it might be a response to the

way that so much of our creativity

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is being swept into content creation.

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We're doing substack and newsletters and

social media posts, and when everything

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becomes a performance or a product, you

can start to feel your energy fraying.

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It's that photo that you took at a family

gathering, but you're not just taking

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it for the photo's sake, you're taking

it to share with somebody so it changes

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the way that you view the scene, right?

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Or the song, or the poem, or the

journal article or the recipe

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that you were just playing with.

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But then when it starts to feel

like content, your energy shifts,

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your joy can get hijacked.

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You start to feel a

constriction, a tightening.

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And in neuroscience, there's a word for

this, it's self-referential processing.

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The more that we monitor and evaluate

ourselves, especially when we have

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this imagined scrutiny, the more

we get into a state of rumination,

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ego construction, and this can

lead to or contribute to low mood.

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Low mood can also trigger it, right?

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So when we're in a low mood, it leads to

more of this self-referential processing

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In classic depression research,

they talk about this internal locus

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of control where you believe that

it's all up to you to succeed.

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And external locus control where

you believe that no matter what

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you do, things won't change.

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The self-referential processing,

the common denominator of

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locus of control is you.

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That's why when you stop thinking about

yourself making the thing, and you

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simply are with it, your energy returns.

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You lose yourself in a good way.

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There's actually no locus of

control when you're in that space.

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The locus of control is all.

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So this is what Glen Phillips and

I talk about on the podcast today.

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You probably know Glen from Toad the

Wet Sprocket, but what you'll hear in

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this conversation is a musician who's

reclaimed music, not as a commodity,

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but as a real spiritual practice.

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We talk about creativity,

ambivalence, community singing.

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We talk about this sweet.

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Shava in a practice that he offers us

on Tuesday nights here in Santa Barbara

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at my favorite yoga studio, Yoga Soup.

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Big shout out to them.

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I don't wanna tell you about it

because it's so jam packed that

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it's hard to get in already, but

it is like my favorite thing ever.

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And we talk about how to make things

for no other reason than to offer

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beauty, to connect, to feel alive.

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And as Glen says, humans have sung

at births, at deaths, at rituals that

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rites a passage for thousands of years.

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Singing together is not just about a

performance, it's about our connection

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as humans, and it's a creative act.

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So the, so this whole month on

the podcast, we are exploring

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creativity and wise effort in our

creativity from different angles.

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In my book Wise Effort, I have a

whole chapter on wise effort and

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creativity and applying the Wise

Effort method to our creativity.

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Each of these months that we're going

through are following the later chapters

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of my book, the first part of the Wise

Effort book, I walk you through the

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wise effort method of getting curious,

opening up, and focusing your energy.

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And the later chapters, I apply 'em

to these domains like wise effort

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and relationships wise, effort and

creativity wise, effort in community.

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So this month we're focusing

on wise effort in community.

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And last week I recorded a live

session with a blocked writer who

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realized her creative freeze had

everything to do with her shifting

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identity as a mother of a growing son,

something I can totally relate to.

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And next week, I'm so excited to

share with you that I'm gonna be

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talking with Poet Rosemerry Trommer.

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I have been so into her book.

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Reading it before bed, reading

it first thing in the morning.

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Actually, two of her books that I

just reached out to her and asked

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her if she'd come on, and she said,

yes, this is so exciting for me.

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Her most recent book of poetry was written

in the wake of her son's death by suicide.

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Her poems are such a beautiful example

of the creative practice, transforming

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our experience and using creative

practice as almost like a grief alchemy.

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So today we're talking to Glen

Phillips, who's become a friend of mine.

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He's a phenomenal musician.

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He is in my memory bank of the 1990s

and early two thousands of college.

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And we're gonna talk about the trap

of measuring your worth by your

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metrics, what it means to become the

song instead of trying to own it.

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And wherever you are in your own

creative life, whether it's blocked or

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blooming, you're hiding or you're just

beginning, I really hope these episodes

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help you feel a little less alone.

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Maybe nudge you back into the making.

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The making for the sake of making.

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Okay.

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Enjoy this conversation with

Glen Phillips and enjoy the songs

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that he recorded live for us.

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When I was interviewing him in his studio.

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All right, Glen Phillips.

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Thank you.

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Glen Phillips: Yeah, glad to be here.

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Diana Hill: I was preparing to talk

to you the way that I would prepare

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to come to one of your shows, which

is you bulk listen to all the music.

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Do you do this before you go

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Glen Phillips: put on a playlist and drive

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around?

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Diana Hill: You like, listen to them

for a few days to get to yourself going

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so you can sing along at the show.

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And of course I was listening

to Walk On The Ocean.

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Which is how I came to you probably

in college listening to that song,

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driving out to UCSB and, brings

back a lot of good memories.

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And, I put all sorts of

interpretation into it.

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And then I looked it up

to what is this song?

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what does this song mean?

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And it sounds like it

doesn't really have a,

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Glen Phillips: No, it was

pretty random actually.

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I had been with my first wife, we'd just

gone up to the, San Juan Islands and we

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were at, Dobe, at Orca on Orcas Island.

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And it'd been like sitting in the

springs with a bunch of hippies

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and so that probably influenced it

a little bit, but it was a five,

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literally a five minute lyric.

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And the chorus, I have no

idea what it means at all.

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but we just threw it down and I

tried to rewrite it and it felt

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right as it was, so we just left it.

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Diana Hill: It's like a R shark.

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Like you can put your own

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interpretation onto it.

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I had always interpreted for myself

walking the ocean as a, like a love song,

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to the ocean and the ocean within me.

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I'm just like ocean obsessed, right?

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And, I think it was, Rick Rubin,

do you, have you ever, have you

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read his book on creativity?

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I have not.

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It super.

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Yeah.

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it's, you just, it's an open pa.

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You just open to whatever page.

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But he has a little thing in there

where he talks about the ocean

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and he says the ocean is like a

better reflection than a mirror.

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Of ourselves.

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So I, I love that song.

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It's a good,

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Glen Phillips: I like that song too.

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But it's, always, it's an odd one.

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'cause there wasn't much intent in it.

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And there it is.

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Diana Hill: Yeah.

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So you started at 15, you were

in this band at San Marco High

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School, which is our local high

school here in Santa Barbara.

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My husband taught at San Marcus.

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A lot of friends come outta San Marcus.

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Tell us a little bit about just the

launching of Toad, The Wet Sprocket, and

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then I wanna get to now what's happening

for you now in the creative process?

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Glen Phillips: Yeah.

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the band, It just happened organically.

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We were all in theater and choir together.

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I was a freshman, they were

seniors, and Todd had like a.

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A woody station wagon and I found out,

lived two blocks away from me and I

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was lazy and didn't wanna bike home.

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So I kept asking him if I could throw

my bike in the back and come home.

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And he had a cool record collection and

turned me on to a ton of music, turned

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me onto huskerdoo and the Replacements

and U2 and Elvis Costello and and

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We started writing songs together and

then put the band together and, and

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the one place we could play near us

was this place called Pats Crash Shaq.

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And he was really cheap so he

wouldn't pay ASCAP and BMI.

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So when, if you have a club, what's that?

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Was BMI?

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So those are performance

rights associations.

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And so if you're a club that has.

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Music as part of your

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offering.

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You're a public place and the

music, it's like paying for

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the paintings on your walls.

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You can't just turn on the radio.

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If you turn on the radio, you also

have to actually pay the songwriters

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because you're playing music in a venue.

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So we had to write original

songs, right outta the gate,

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which most bands don't have to do.

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And

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I just kept moving forward and

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Diana Hill: But you're like little boys.

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you're like 15 years old,

16 years old while you're

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Glen Phillips: doing Yeah, I was 15, 16.

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Diana Hill: I have a 15-year-old.

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I can't imagine him being

that organized to get

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Glen Phillips: it wasn't that organized.

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we were just playing gigs,

but it was fun to write songs.

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And then we, Brad Nack the local

artist in here in Santa Barbara,

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wanted a backup band on two songs.

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And, he said if, we recorded two songs for

him, we could record two songs of our own.

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And we just went in and played 'em live

and we're like, wow, that was easy.

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We should do eight more and have an album.

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And so we spent $600 and recorded eight

more songs and we had a 10 song record.

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And that ended up like

just getting handed around.

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We never even sent out a demo.

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, I was planning on going to San Francisco.

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I was inspired by high school teachers,

so I thought I'd do that and instead,

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dead week that year when I was 18, we

ended up flying to New York and signing

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with Columbia Records and went on tour.

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Most people who end up in my position

have sacrificed everything to be there.

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And I really fell into it.

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And I think one of my, struggles in

the years since has been like expecting

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the hand of God to come down and just

make this crazy miracle happen again.

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and repeatedly realizing that life

doesn't normally work that way,

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Diana Hill: or maybe you're

getting other kinds of miracles.

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Glen Phillips: I'm getting other

kinds of miracles, but it, but

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that kind of, sudden life shift.

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I think we, because of how it happened,

we might've taken it a little for granted.

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It was definitely a surprise.

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It was not the life or the career I

thought I'd have, and part of wanting

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to be a teacher was my, David Holmes,

who was my theater teacher, it was

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his first year and he had said, he

became a teacher because he loved

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the theater more than anything else.

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And all his friends were going

off to New York or Chicago.

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And he realized like he, he didn't

think his heart could handle

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auditioning constantly and the constant

rejection and constant judgment.

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And I was like, that's me.

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Diana Hill: Yeah.

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Glen Phillips: I'll be a teacher.

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Diana Hill: but there's something

about those early years in

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terms of the energetic flow of.

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Your creativity, the band's

creativity, the, constraints.

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nope, sorry.

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You can't copy anyone.

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You gotta do original

stuff to get on the stage.

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Yeah.

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And and this is the benefit

of being a teenager.

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You have less of that frontal

lobe holding you back.

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You're just go for it.

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Yeah.

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That then had this organic build,

and this is what we were talking

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about with the yoga class because

the way that I, I started with Walk

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On The Ocean as a college student,

but now the way that I encounter you.

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Is in this magical

space on Tuesday nights.

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That I get to cry every single

Tuesday when you play where, your

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wife leads this amazing yoga class

and then you close us out with Glen

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Phillips and Shavasana and it's

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Glen Phillips: it's

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Diana Hill: it's phenomenal.

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It's phenomenal.

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It feels like at the same kind

of energetic flow without the

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constraints of auditioning or.

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it has to be a certain way

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Glen Phillips: or success

or any of the externals.

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it was easy to write and

be creative as a kid.

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'cause I don't know.

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I didn't question it.

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And I've always found, the resistance.

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I somehow.

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cleared and lubricated that path where

I feel, for the most part, like I have

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a right to write songs, and it's amazing

how resistance comes up if it comes to

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prose or an essay or any, anything else.

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All of a sudden I'm like,

I'm not summon rushdi.

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Like, why should I bother

putting pen to paper?

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I can't do this.

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And, in music I mostly don't get that.

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Bob Dylan did it better.

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Like,

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Diana Hill: you don't, huh?

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Glen Phillips: Most days I

come up with other reasons not

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to write if I'm being, if I'm

procrastinating, if I'm being avoidant.

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But, I found after the band,

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and after my divorce, I'd been

bitter about music for a while

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because I had, it was tied with

these metrics of external success.

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and something I couldn't return to, right?

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That thing of being on a major

label, having hits as a kid.

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And, when you know, when you're

working in the business, like

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those are the metrics that count.

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Like how many people bought a ticket?

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How much have you sold?

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How are you big enough?

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You gotta get bigger.

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there's always.

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There's not a sense of enoughness ever on

the business side of the creative world.

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And I'm really happy.

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I have a personal manager now who's

the first person who ever said to me

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like, you don't need to get anywhere.

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You're, you have a great career.

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Diana Hill: You're

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there.

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Glen Phillips: I was like, really?

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I'd worked with other people before

and they were always, you're such a

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good songwriter, you should be huge.

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We gotta get you back on the radio.

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And I would fail at that and I would

feel terrible about myself and.

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Just that difference and, Toad's

management is like that too.

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They're like, you're a legacy band.

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You got a great career.

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Our job now is finding people who, if you

mention us, they go, oh, I love that band.

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Do they still play?

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They

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Diana Hill: happened to be, I was

interviewing this guy, this Columbia

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psychiatrist at Columbia University,

and I was like, Glen Phillips, he

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talks about creativity this way

and he's oh, I love that band.

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Glen Phillips: Yeah.

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It's

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Diana Hill: and then you're

instantly there like.

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Remembering.

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Listening to your music.

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But you're also instantly there now.

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you have the, legacy of your

band, but you have the beauty

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of what you're creating now.

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So there's also something really

special about what you create here

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Glen Phillips: Oh yeah.

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Diana Hill: Oh yeah.

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That it's different than the big label.

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It's like sacred spiritual spaces

where you're doing songs with people.

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Glen Phillips: I'd had that mindset.

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Yeah.

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And, I've always

struggled with depression.

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I, and so I was in this state

of just depression, feeling

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like I was a failure feeling.

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And,

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after my divorce, I,

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I guess I described it to you

as the psychedelic rum Springer.

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Mm-hmm.

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but that.

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Brought music to me in a new way.

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And, I found in these kind of

ceremonial circles, that I could

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pray without being religious.

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I could pray and I'd my entire life, I had

something spiritual coming out of me, but

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I didn't have a practice or a belonging

in a community or a place where it felt.

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Like I fit there.

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And there was something about the openness

of that community where these songs

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all of a sudden took on new meaning.

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And through that, I discovered

a community singing where it's

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people in a circle together

singing uplifting spiritual songs.

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Not a trained choir,

not a performance choir.

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What I love about that music

is that there's no performing.

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You sing to each other with

each other for each other.

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And, and I started leading these

song circles at a friend's house,

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and it was just so beautiful to get,

to make music and have it be completely

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outside the legacy of the band.

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this idea of, once again, these commercial

metrics of success and just leave people

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feeling good and, and it really changed

how I saw music, changed how I eventually

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saw the band in my own career and changed

how I wanted to write music because it

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started feeling like, like a spiritual

practice and also a spiritual offering.

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And I wanted to write songs that

would, , give people a little more ground

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under their feet when they needed it.

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And, I'd always, written sad

songs, and I still write a lot

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of more melancholy material.

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But, there is something about,

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being able to write from that

place of vulnerability and that.

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I know that other people are going through

the same struggles I'm going through.

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So if I'm writing honestly

about my struggle, it's gonna

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translate to somebody else.

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And dealing more with, I

think, emotional specifics.

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and even within that

emotional ambiguity, and

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'cause.

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Or can I say, is it ambiguity I'm

looking forward to, or there's

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that much better word, ambivalence.

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But like the actual

meaning of ambivalence.

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Ambi.

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Valent,

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right?

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It's dual valence.

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Dual track, right?

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And we think of being ambivalent

as meaning that we don't feel

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strongly about something or

we don't really care about it.

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And ambivalent just means one part of you.

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It can mean one part of you is

the saying, go, please do that.

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it would be so wonderful.

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Take that chance.

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And the other part is

going, you will fail.

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Please protect yourself.

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Don't just stop, be afraid.

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And, it's

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those ambivalent feelings

that I think are I.

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So much truer than some primary

color, attitude towards emotion.

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Like a pure happy song.

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Like a happy song is really

better if it has some sadness

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Diana Hill: in it.

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Glen Phillips: And, it's the

little balls in, Inside Out,

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They need, more colors.

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Yeah.

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Diana Hill: there's your, in

your,:

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I think it's your most recent full album.

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Yeah.

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as I was binge listening this morning

on my run, there was one with a

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lot of that ambivalence to it.

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It's about love, the song

and the ambivalence of the.

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The liking or the wanting and

the needing that happens in love.

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Which is the one?

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, Meet you in the middle between

the wanting and the need.

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Oh.

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Stone Throat.

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Stone Throat.

386

:

Okay.

387

:

Stone Throat.

388

:

And you talk about meeting.

389

:

meeting someone in the middle

between the wanting and the need.

390

:

So you could think about this in the

ambivalence, in the love space, ooh,

391

:

I, that sort of craving type of love.

392

:

And then the more deep connected love.

393

:

But then you could also think about

that in terms of what you're talking

394

:

about with the wanting craving that

happens with the material success.

395

:

and then the actual need that's being

met for you in these song circles, like

396

:

it's meeting a need, but maybe you're

not rolling in the money from the song

397

:

circle, but it's a deeper, need, a

deeper connection that you're getting

398

:

and that you're offering to that.

399

:

We are all part of that circle.

400

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

401

:

it feels good to, I'm at this point,

very grateful for the band, and I also

402

:

understand that the band serves, I.

403

:

There's something about a song that you

heard in your twenties that like will

404

:

take you, it's like this time travel

and you get to go back and even if it's

405

:

the worst breakup you ever had, it's

like you go, ah, that was a hard time.

406

:

but in a loving way.

407

:

you get to view yourself with

this objectivity and compassion

408

:

and music really takes you there.

409

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

410

:

Glen Phillips: and that, that's a

beautiful thing that Toad offers.

411

:

And we also offer, we have our new songs

and, but for kind of my sensibility and

412

:

my heart, I like a little more intimacy.

413

:

And

414

:

just getting to sing Shavasana

at Elyse's classes is wonderful.

415

:

I love doing that.

416

:

I love the song circles.

417

:

I love.

418

:

the ceremonial work I've done

and stuff that's, just completely

419

:

away from any kind of ambition.

420

:

It's about being in a moment and

being present and serving and,

421

:

even just offering praise, like

to no one, to nothing to, to

422

:

life for bothering to be, and.

423

:

Music has only recently

been commodified, right?

424

:

it's every human society sings,

sings when they work, sings when

425

:

they give birth, sings when they die.

426

:

it's at the core of our experience

and so many sacred things, I feel like

427

:

we've taken it and commodified it.

428

:

We made it, literally they

call it product, right?

429

:

Your, album is product.

430

:

But the heart of it

431

:

isn't a capitalist venture.

432

:

And so for me, having that balance, being

able to pay the rent with Toad, be really

433

:

happy about that, and then be able to put

the rest of my attentions on things that

434

:

kind of fill my spirit and, the balance

of the two and not the Toad doesn't,

435

:

but it does it in a different way.

436

:

Diana Hill: I wanna talk about

Shavasana Tuesday night, so Elyse

437

:

is another version of that, like

not like of not creating things for

438

:

commodity she teaches from the heart.

439

:

She brings poetry to her teaching.

440

:

She creates community that

everyone wants to be in on.

441

:

We're mat to mat in this yoga class

on a Tuesday night at five 30.

442

:

People get there.

443

:

They just are chatty.

444

:

She has to quiet us down.

445

:

She's moving people.

446

:

Glen Phillips: all her English

teacher skills to, she's really

447

:

good at just, she puts her hands

up to her ears and looks around the

448

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

449

:

And so we're all squeezed in.

450

:

And then she works us.

451

:

she does a hard, beautiful, powerful

class and and then slows us down.

452

:

And then we all lie

down and you sing to us.

453

:

But what happened this last Tuesday?

454

:

It happens, it's happened a few

times, but it happened more this last

455

:

Tuesday, was that we started singing.

456

:

Did you hear us?

457

:

Glen Phillips: Oh, yeah.

458

:

Diana Hill: And I could hear, another

yoga teacher behind me because the

459

:

yoga teachers go to  Elyse's class.

460

:

Let's just say this, like the yoga

teachers from the studio go to her class.

461

:

That's how good a class it is

could hear this other yoga teacher.

462

:

And when she, I wanted to sing and

when she started to sing, it gave

463

:

me permission to sing and, and then

other people permission to sing.

464

:

And then we all wanted to stay

and we would like for you to have

465

:

a whole concert after yoga class.

466

:

But what is happening there energetically,

like in terms of that community sing

467

:

and the, what's it like for you?

468

:

Glen Phillips: it's lovely.

469

:

It's, I need a wider repertoire for the

Shavasana I'm running outta songs, but,

470

:

once again, it's a

vulnerable moment, right?

471

:

You've just been, you have

the poetry she brings in.

472

:

You're broken open by, finding your

edge with your body, and I think

473

:

getting to take in something

that's happening in the room,

474

:

it's, music does that anyway.

475

:

my.

476

:

I haven't found a better metaphor for it,

but I feel like recorded music is great,

477

:

but it's a little like masturbation.

478

:

Whereas live music is

like making love, right?

479

:

Yes.

480

:

It's, there's something

481

:

Diana Hill: yes,

482

:

Glen Phillips: in the fragility of

a moment and in mistakes and in just

483

:

aliveness and the way air moves in a room

that really takes you somewhere different.

484

:

And, and even especially,

un amplified music.

485

:

it's part of why I love the song circle

so much and, playing music in yurts is

486

:

because it's in the moment, there's no,

487

:

nobody's paying to be there.

488

:

or sometimes people are paying

to be there, but it's not about a

489

:

ticket sale, it's not about numbers.

490

:

It's about,

491

:

Diana Hill: or impressing.

492

:

Yeah.

493

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

494

:

It's about being fully present in a

moment and there's a communality to

495

:

it, and especially when everybody's

singing together in a room.

496

:

I just think we, I evolved to want and

expect that and we're hungry for it.

497

:

'cause our culture really

doesn't offer much.

498

:

we get to sing Sweet Caroline and, at

a game and there's karaoke night, but

499

:

even that's about the individual getting

up and singing a lot of the time.

500

:

it's about the spotlight on one person.

501

:

It, there really is something about being

together, being vulnerable, whether we're

502

:

singing together or whether you're, I.

503

:

Really listening to listen,

especially to a song you may not

504

:

know, and you're fully present.

505

:

Everything matters in that time.

506

:

and, yeah, it's, I don't know, it's

a beautiful thing to be able to do

507

:

and I'm glad I found places where I

get to, 'cause no Elyse, no savasana.

508

:

maybe I would've found

it somewhere else, but,

509

:

Diana Hill: yeah, I wanna

talk a little bit about.

510

:

Love and Elyse and album, I'm

like, I was just hearing her in it.

511

:

but before we do that, would you play,

will you play us winches in a song?

512

:

Maybe you can't play us, Part of Something

Beautiful because that's not licensed,

513

:

but there's other ones that are yours.

514

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

515

:

I can't promise you the moon

and stars, but on a clear

516

:

night, we can go out in the yard

517

:

to lay upon the grass beneath the sky,

518

:

count the shooting stars and satellite.

519

:

I can't promise you won't need to cry.

520

:

But I'll help you wipe

tears from your eyes.

521

:

If there's one thing that

you need to know is true,

522

:

you must remember you

523

:

here.

524

:

In short years through

525

:

and warm tears, you were meant to be here.

526

:

You meant to be here.

527

:

You.

528

:

I can't promise you'll always see

529

:

how beautiful you are, how

wild and free for all the many

530

:

changes you'll go through.

531

:

Please don't forget that you

were meant to be here through

532

:

long days, short years, through

533

:

warm tears you are meant to be.

534

:

You meant to be here.

535

:

You meant to swim through.

536

:

Meant to be here through

long days and short years.

537

:

Warm tears you were meant to be.

538

:

You were meant to be here.

539

:

You were meant to be here through

hard days and sweet years through sad,

540

:

happy tears you were meant to be.

541

:

You were meant to be here.

542

:

You were meant to be.

543

:

You were meant to be here.

544

:

You were meant to be.

545

:

You are meant to be here.

546

:

Diana Hill: You've married someone

fairly private, so we won't go too much

547

:

detail into her, but I would like to

talk about, this sort of evolution of you

548

:

because you, you talked about you as a

teenager and this big wave that just came

549

:

to you, and here you are, like signing

a deal with a major record label and

550

:

you, were on that for a while, and then

you talked about depression, divorce.

551

:

Walk us through into finding

love again and how music

552

:

played a role in that process?

553

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

554

:

it's funny, I meant, so she

taught at a, junior high that

555

:

does these, long bike trips.

556

:

They'll bike from Sedona to Grand

Canyon, the eighth and ninth

557

:

grade, and then alternate years.

558

:

They go, I believe it's Bend to Ashland.

559

:

Yeah, my daughters, I have,

three grown daughters.

560

:

they're all in their twenties.

561

:

and the oldest is just about to

get married, which is amazing.

562

:

and they, my oldest was out as part of

the staff as alumni, and so I did a little

563

:

road trip up to Oregon to meet them.

564

:

and Elyse was there, cutting.

565

:

Cutting lettuce at the mess tent.

566

:

And so I went over and helped

make salad and we talked for,

567

:

an hour.

568

:

And, yeah, somewhere in the middle

of the conversation I just kept

569

:

thinking, All the good ones are

taken, all the good ones are taken.

570

:

and then she mentioned that she'd been,

separated for a year, like an hour

571

:

into the conversation and was like, oh.

572

:

Maybe not.

573

:

and so we just kept talking and I

remember the first, we met in Santa

574

:

Barbara again when we got back home

and we went for this walk on the beach.

575

:

And it was, I, in that talk, told

her everything that could possibly

576

:

be a red flag about me, right

from the get go, which is not.

577

:

The overshare is traditionally like,

not the great first move, but there

578

:

was something about her, which just, it

was either gonna be 100% or not at all.

579

:

And I'd been having my like,

typical post-divorce, hold on.

580

:

I don't know.

581

:

I'm just like playing the field,

like had relationships, got

582

:

out and even at that time I was

like, my plan was to leave town.

583

:

As soon as my youngest daughter.

584

:

I had I think a year and a half until

she was 18 and moving out of town.

585

:

And I was like, I'm gonna get

the hell outta Santa Barbara, I'm

586

:

gonna start new somewhere else.

587

:

and I didn't want to have

a relationship for a year.

588

:

I was like, I'm, I need to

learn how to love myself.

589

:

I collapsed on myself and then

I put it all on a partner and I

590

:

don't want to do that anymore.

591

:

I don't wanna make someone else

responsible for my happiness.

592

:

And,

593

:

and so I had some real plans and

Elyse did not fit any of them.

594

:

and at the same time it was just

clear really quickly, damn it,

595

:

this is gonna, this, this'll

take 20, 20, at least 20 years,

596

:

Diana Hill: to make this happen.

597

:

Or what?

598

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah, being with

her was not gonna be quicker,

599

:

Diana Hill: Oh, yeah.

600

:

Glen Phillips: if, and it wasn't

something I couldn't just date

601

:

around with her, like it was clear.

602

:

So that very first conversation, I laid

everything on the table that if she

603

:

found out later, she might go, huh.

604

:

But it still honestly took me about

two years to un unpack like that might.

605

:

How badly I wanted to escape, and I'd

been in also in a really difficult

606

:

relationship previously and was,

I didn't trust her like kindness.

607

:

Sometimes I'd been hurt and I was

waiting for something to go wrong

608

:

and, she wasn't entirely patient

with me, but she was surprising.

609

:

She believed in me and did us enough.

610

:

She just knew and she held

it out for both of us.

611

:

and it took longer than I would've liked

to, for me to just be both feet in.

612

:

But, I'm really grateful for it.

613

:

'cause, there's a,

there's something about.

614

:

Really being in relationship where

615

:

choice feels like it has a

lot less to do with it now.

616

:

And there, there's something

about declaring yourself to

617

:

someone and being like, you're

the one, you're my ride or die.

618

:

So

619

:

if I am.

620

:

Getting depressed, freaking out,

thinking about other places I could

621

:

be, how another life would be better,

that I should leave everything behind.

622

:

'cause when I get depressed,

it's just universal.

623

:

Everything is wrong.

624

:

I need to escape.

625

:

And to be anchored in, to know,

626

:

what's that book?

627

:

The Wisdom of No Escape, right?

628

:

It's no, this is actually my life.

629

:

This is where I'm supposed to be.

630

:

And it's really helped me train my

mind away from the other, the idea

631

:

that something elsewhere is better.

632

:

Diana Hill: right

633

:

Glen Phillips: and I'm also lucky that

what's right here is actually really good.

634

:

So sometimes something else is better.

635

:

but you can just jump from one set of

problems to another set of problems, to

636

:

another set of problems indefinitely.

637

:

And there's something about,

638

:

Devotion to a person that is so freeing,

639

:

and just understanding that

we're on this journey together.

640

:

And, it doesn't have to

be epic or in any way.

641

:

It's just like showing up in the

morning and doing our best for

642

:

each other and some days not doing

all that great and other days.

643

:

Killing it and then doing the next day.

644

:

And

645

:

Diana Hill: she also, Elyse is a middle

school teacher, so she has capacity

646

:

for those big lows and I could see her.

647

:

Not like you putting all your red

flags on the first, the first day that

648

:

like probably didn't knock her over.

649

:

Like I could see her

having some capacity Yeah.

650

:

For that, or even interest

and openness to it.

651

:

she reads poetry in every class.

652

:

She, brings her own vulnerability

to the spaces that she's in, in a

653

:

really beautiful way, in a very,

654

:

understated.

655

:

Gentle, but very strong.

656

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

657

:

Diana Hill: She's got this

interesting, dialectic to her, but

658

:

I could see, that working.

659

:

Like you didn't knock her off

660

:

Glen Phillips: No.

661

:

She's, hard to shake.

662

:

Yeah.

663

:

And I think my kind of wild airiness

and flights of fancy and stuff are,

664

:

useful to her to, A bit of extra wildness

is good for her and I, need some grounding

665

:

and we compliment each other really well.

666

:

and there's just, I don't know, there's

just something there that was there from

667

:

the, very start that scared me to death.

668

:

'cause it felt like the real thing.

669

:

Diana Hill: That's how you

know you're on the right track.

670

:

Yeah.

671

:

If you're like, this is a,

672

:

Glen Phillips: terrified.

673

:

Diana Hill: of something really big

here and my heart can barely hold it.

674

:

Yeah.

675

:

That's good stuff.

676

:

Yeah.

677

:

and

678

:

Glen Phillips: And and she holds

me accountable, which, I need,

679

:

Diana Hill: So something that,

really impressed me was coming to

680

:

your, performance that you did.

681

:

It was a group of a number of,

local performers that paired up

682

:

with the Santa Barbara Symphony.

683

:

And it was this beautiful collaboration.

684

:

You were one part of many in this

collaboration that you came on at the

685

:

end, and the song that you sang, it

was, I felt a little bit on the edge,

686

:

knocked me off my feet a little bit.

687

:

When you had this symphony

behind you and you were singing

688

:

and pairing up with the strings

689

:

is

690

:

Glen Phillips: called Leaving

Old Town Uhhuh, from this album,

691

:

Swallowed By The New, which was

my post-divorce record Uhhuh.

692

:

Diana Hill: Uhhuh.

693

:

Glen Phillips: and yeah, I

happened to have a string

694

:

arrangement already existing.

695

:

Paul Bryan wrote it.

696

:

and yeah, it was.

697

:

It was a fun part of the night.

698

:

'cause the whole night had been

like, eight piece band or whatever.

699

:

So it was rock band plus symphony, right?

700

:

My friend

701

:

Diana Hill: Very traditional

way you would think of doing it,

702

:

but you did something different.

703

:

Glen Phillips: and there's something

about turning off the band, taking

704

:

the horns away and just having

strings and guitar and vocal.

705

:

That's all of a sudden,

it's not the wall of sound.

706

:

You can hear everything.

707

:

And so that was, it was a

striking moment, in the,

708

:

Diana Hill: I guess my association to it.

709

:

Some, it came to me when you

were talking about Elyse.

710

:

'cause it, it feels a little bit

like that of, the intimacy that you

711

:

had with those strings on the stage.

712

:

and the intimacy you're talking

about in relationship, there's a.

713

:

There's a kind of intimacy

that music can get us into,

714

:

our, literally our heartstrings.

715

:

They talk about pulling on your

heartstrings, that metaphor, right?

716

:

Yeah.

717

:

Yeah.

718

:

And, then the other piece about it was

your willingness and the confidence

719

:

that you have on a stage to, you

really commanded the stage and that.

720

:

That night there we could see

all the different artists.

721

:

So there were some artists that came

in and I could feel their nervousness.

722

:

This is whoa, this is a

bigger stage that I'm used to.

723

:

Or the, I have this huge, yeah.

724

:

symphony behind me that's gonna

launch me into something really scary.

725

:

And then there was other artists that

were just owning it, I've got this,

726

:

some singers there in particular, you

could probably say their names that

727

:

were just like, whoa, you are a force.

728

:

And then you came in.

729

:

Your energy on that stage

wasn't timid or force.

730

:

It was,

731

:

clear.

732

:

It, you had just a, an ease, a clarity

and ease and a collaboration like that.

733

:

You're, you were really

collaborating with the strings.

734

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

735

:

At it's best I performing on a stage,

I'm not gonna be, a huge showman.

736

:

Yeah.

737

:

Part of it's finding your lane.

738

:

I think there are people who have

that larger than life, and what

739

:

I've found is that if I can just

access a lot of presence, as myself

740

:

and not having to, and I can.

741

:

I don't know, forget

I'm there and disappear.

742

:

, If that makes sense.

743

:

Not in a disassociative way, but,

if you're practiced enough and if

744

:

you've sung enough, at its best, you

become the song and you're not really

745

:

playing the game of being you anymore.

746

:

Yeah.

747

:

Which doesn't happen every night.

748

:

I like, to get to a level of

competence and it doesn't happen.

749

:

Every song where, you wanna sing in

time, you wanna sing in tune, you wanna

750

:

not forget the lyrics or the chords.

751

:

You wanna be synced up

with everybody else.

752

:

You want to be affable

and open and present.

753

:

But the magical moments, the transcendent

moments are the moments where you just.

754

:

Are the song and the song comes

through you and you are practiced

755

:

enough and fluent enough.

756

:

And I think people find this, it's

the same, Elyse talks about it

757

:

in, in yoga of just, dropping in.

758

:

Is the moment where there's a sequence

and there's just enough repetition

759

:

in it than rather than thinking.

760

:

you're gonna be going for Warrior Back and

then it's into triangle and you've done

761

:

this before and you stop thinking and then

you're just a vessel for Vaness, right?

762

:

And, you're getting, once again,

not to disassociate, but just to

763

:

be something a little larger and

different and let something move

764

:

through you and let something move you.

765

:

Diana Hill: And, in those classes as

well as in that night when we, when I

766

:

had that transcendent experience with

you in the strings, you were the song,

767

:

but then you were also part of all of us.

768

:

So in the yoga class.

769

:

I am the movement, but I'm also

part of the whole flow of the class.

770

:

You feel the whole class

flowing around you.

771

:

It's 360.

772

:

Yeah.

773

:

Glen Phillips: Right.

774

:

the boundaries dissolve.

775

:

When people talk about psychedelics

or mushroom, like it's part of that

776

:

apparently psilocybin takes, some

of the centers that deal with self

777

:

definition and deny them a little

extra blood flow as they're giving

778

:

more serotonin to other parts.

779

:

But that there's, we are always

780

:

having to, essentially run a

neurological simulation of the

781

:

physical input to our bodies.

782

:

And, there's this little delay.

783

:

You get touched on your arm and your

nerves send it up and then your body

784

:

goes, oh, and my arm's about here

in space, you have prop perception.

785

:

Where your body is, what you're doing.

786

:

We're always simulating ourselves

787

:

Diana Hill: Mm-hmm.

788

:

Glen Phillips: and, we have enough ego

to get us to do things like mate, and

789

:

find food and hopefully also have fun.

790

:

But it's so delicious,

in meditation, right?

791

:

It's like trying to, hoping well, you

get what you get, but getting beyond

792

:

thinking, getting beyond just right

all the doing and just being able to be

793

:

without having to be anyone or anything.

794

:

And,

795

:

I think when you see

someone on stage who's just

796

:

clearly forgetting that there's a

whole bunch of people looking at

797

:

them, but feeling that there's a

whole lot of people being with them

798

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

799

:

Glen Phillips: like

800

:

Diana Hill: there's an effortlessness

801

:

Glen Phillips: there's an

effortlessness that can happen

802

:

that can be really transcended and

that translates really beautifully.

803

:

Those moments.

804

:

Those moments are absolutely wonderful.

805

:

Diana Hill: I love that you're making the

connection between psychedelics, music,

806

:

meditation, that these are all yoga people

are maybe experience the surfing these

807

:

ways in which they're, the separateness

dissolves in year one with the whole.

808

:

The whole of it, the beauty of

it, the love, sex, another place

809

:

where this happens and we put

up the things that block us.

810

:

there's the cognitive

control that blocks us.

811

:

The self-doubt, the having to figure

it out, the trying to make money, the

812

:

getting them to like us, all the things

that are the blocks to that effortlessness

813

:

that's so beautiful and so transcendent

and that we, I think we crave that.

814

:

Just to be ourselves and be in love.

815

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

816

:

Diana Hill: In whatever domain we're in.

817

:

Yeah.

818

:

Glen Phillips: it's such simple stuff.

819

:

I don't know why I even just remembered,

like I, I was dance shamed as a kid

820

:

and every once in a while I find

myself being able to dance again.

821

:

And, but thinking of having kids

and dancing in the kitchen with

822

:

little kids, which like, no one

cares if you look good doing it.

823

:

You can be an utter fool.

824

:

You can find it there.

825

:

Yeah.

826

:

Where it's just I just spent an hour

dancing like a moron with kids, like

827

:

completely forgot about time or anything.

828

:

Anything else, like any time,

829

:

it can happen in so

many small ways as well.

830

:

And yeah, I love that accessibility,

but music feels like a cheat code.

831

:

A lot of the time and

that it's even available.

832

:

It's one of the things back

to the community singing.

833

:

I feel like those circle songs are

this cheat code where non-musicians,

834

:

can experience this thing where they

don't have to have a great voice.

835

:

Diana Hill: And

836

:

Glen Phillips: a part

of this larger sound.

837

:

And the larger sound is beautiful.

838

:

And once again, your

boundaries dissolve a little.

839

:

You, especially with the Circle songs,

they tend to be really repetitive.

840

:

They're, and you get in a trance.

841

:

You just do this thing over and get to sit

in this beauty that you're co-creating.

842

:

Diana Hill: Right.

843

:

Um,

844

:

Glen Phillips: and you don't even have

to do, the years of study and work, and

845

:

Diana Hill: this is why Ton was always.

846

:

So try, when I was in my twenties and

I did a lot, I just would do a lot

847

:

of ton at the ashram and it was even

better 'cause it wasn't even in, in

848

:

English that I understood the words to.

849

:

So I could just get there quick and,

I feel song shamed in my own voice.

850

:

Like I, I don't think I

actually can carry a tune.

851

:

I actually don't think I can carry a tune.

852

:

I wasn't exposed to a lot of music

as a kid, as opposed to my kids that

853

:

are like so musically dialed just

because they've been in it for so long.

854

:

But the being part of the collective

sound, there's even just it's not

855

:

even my voice, it's, our voice that is

all these vibrations coming together.

856

:

And then the physical vibration of music

and what we know now about sound, getting

857

:

into the cells of our body and getting

into our, nervous system in a certain way.

858

:

The pacing, the breath, the slowing

down of the breath with the music.

859

:

it's just activating so

many different parts of us.

860

:

it's very healing.

861

:

How do you.

862

:

How do you practice?

863

:

You talked a little bit about,

psychedelics, but then off the air you

864

:

Glen Phillips: said mostly I

don't do that's occasional,

865

:

Diana Hill: no.

866

:

I say off the air you said what

you've learned is you need to,

867

:

practice, you need, a meditation

practice or a spiritual practice.

868

:

That's not just like a escape practice

869

:

Glen Phillips: I think psychedelic, like

bringing them up because there's so much

870

:

in the public right now.

871

:

Yeah.

872

:

And treated as a miracle cure.

873

:

Sure.

874

:

And in my experience, I've

looked for the answers there.

875

:

I've never found the answers there.

876

:

What I found is that I can get a mental

reset that if I then integrate that into

877

:

daily practices, that can lead to change.

878

:

And you can do it without the

psychedelics, but and I always

879

:

come back, it's the same things.

880

:

It's like yoga, exercise, being

outdoors, seeing friends, journaling.

881

:

I started doing, like gratitude lists

in the morning, five internal things,

882

:

five external things because gratitude

can be really hard for me to hold on to.

883

:

And I always poo-pooed the gratitude

list as like a, it's woo, whatever,

884

:

Diana Hill: Mm-hmm.

885

:

Glen Phillips: but.

886

:

As Tara Brach would say, the

mind is negatively inclined.

887

:

Yes.

888

:

and my mind is often negatively inclined.

889

:

And so

890

:

Diana Hill: I love your mind.

891

:

I relate to that mind.

892

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

893

:

But it's, it's

894

:

Diana Hill: wake up with

895

:

Glen Phillips: it's good, but

it's the waking up with it and

896

:

the depressed mind, that's the

stuff that's always at the front.

897

:

Yeah.

898

:

And, and so to yeah to maintain.

899

:

And the other item was rest,

900

:

It's, yeah, I'm, I've been, I,

had a long, one of those malaises

901

:

that's it wasn't like I couldn't

get out of bed and do things.

902

:

It wasn't like I couldn't be a decent

partner, but I didn't have a lot

903

:

of vitality and I've been really,

904

:

making slow achievable changes.

905

:

Part of it's that, and trying to

remind myself, I don't have to be

906

:

perfect to be lovable, and it started

with things like, my phone charger

907

:

is now in my music room in right

908

:

Diana Hill: over there.

909

:

Glen Phillips: instead of next to the bed.

910

:

Diana Hill: So

911

:

Glen Phillips: the phone is not the

last thing I see at night, and it's not

912

:

the first thing I see in the morning.

913

:

it's tiny things.

914

:

Got rid of all my social media.

915

:

Got rid of Reddit, got,

it's like it's this.

916

:

Paying attention to the inputs.

917

:

Paying attention to the

output, and trying to just,

918

:

and the, I, can get trapped

in a feeling like I have to

919

:

change everything about myself.

920

:

There's something fundamentally wrong.

921

:

And the thing that actually seems to stick

with me is it's just like small nudges and

922

:

the little tiny nudges really add up till

you're heading in a different direction.

923

:

And, as my therapist always

says, practice makes practice

924

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

925

:

Glen Phillips: And,

it's with anything too.

926

:

It's

927

:

I think there's this American idea

of arrival that like, if you get

928

:

enough, you'll be safe and then you

stop working and you can golf all day.

929

:

Or

930

:

Diana Hill: do

931

:

Glen Phillips: recreate and or achieving

enlightenment and then you're there.

932

:

And

933

:

it's, one of El Elyse's favorite

quotes is, how you live your day

934

:

is how you live your life, right?

935

:

It's like the practices just build up,

936

:

and they can lead to mastery.

937

:

Mastery, is I don't know what the,

number on the gauge is where you've

938

:

reached mastery in something.

939

:

But the thing about that is

that's not an arrival point.

940

:

The people I know who are the

greatest musicians or players or

941

:

whatever else they do, I think of a

guy like Chris Thile in Nickel Creek

942

:

Diana Hill: Oh, I love Nickel Creek.

943

:

Glen Phillips: he practices

at least four hours a day.

944

:

Every day.

945

:

Yeah.

946

:

Like it's not like he

got there and he stopped.

947

:

And the other thing about him

948

:

Diana Hill: the Dalai Lama, is

six hours of meditation a day.

949

:

Yeah.

950

:

Glen Phillips: And he's voracious.

951

:

Yeah.

952

:

In terms of his musical curiosity.

953

:

And if you show him something that's new

or interesting, and I like, there is this

954

:

element that it's not like you're aiming

towards this goal and you're achieving it.

955

:

Maybe you're like, I wanna

be able to play that piece.

956

:

I want to practice fast enough,

that I can, do that thing.

957

:

But there's, if, you're really motivated

by curiosity and wonder, like there's

958

:

no stopping point, and your various

interests also will start to grow

959

:

and merge with each other and you'll

discover something new in between that.

960

:

And it's just a good way

to live as a practice.

961

:

and I know when I'm depressed,

I stop being curious.

962

:

I stop being interested,

I stop practicing.

963

:

these are, and I, go into rumination

and it's still something I have

964

:

not been a good enough practitioner

to, keep far from myself.

965

:

It's just interesting to, to note

for myself, like when I am depressed.

966

:

And when that part takes over that

it's I notice I don't practice.

967

:

And there are things that are most

delightful to me about being me or

968

:

being curious or learning or reading

or playing the guitar, writing songs.

969

:

I love the process and, it's amazing

how long I can deny myself those things.

970

:

Yeah.

971

:

It's fascinating.

972

:

Yeah.

973

:

The trance,

974

:

Diana Hill: yeah.

975

:

Glen Phillips: And then

how quick it comes back,

976

:

Diana Hill: quick it comes

back, and that it's not.

977

:

A self-improvement project to get

yourself to be not depressed, but

978

:

more to remember who you are and

see, you had a song clear Seeing.

979

:

Clear eye.

980

:

Clear eyed.

981

:

Clear eyed.

982

:

And in that song , you'd

said something about I, as a

983

:

kid, I was always clear eyed.

984

:

And as you're talking right now,

I'm like, there's a lot of glen

985

:

clear-eyed in this conversation where

you're just super clear like the.

986

:

The wisdom is super clear.

987

:

And then when you're depressed it's

like that, like I can imagine we

988

:

could be talking to a very different

989

:

Glen Phillips: Yeah.

990

:

And I'm,

991

:

Diana Hill: see this.

992

:

Glen Phillips: much more

practiced at the other one.

993

:

Yeah.

994

:

back to practice.

995

:

Like you get good at what you do,

996

:

Diana Hill: And

997

:

Glen Phillips: I've gotten good

at reinforcing the negative.

998

:

but I find that what delights me, even if

it's difficult, songwriting isn't easy.

999

:

There's lots to get

through and figure out.

:

00:58:11,236 --> 00:58:14,456

, A friend of mine said a long

time ago, there's a problem

:

00:58:14,456 --> 00:58:15,956

to solve when you're writing.

:

00:58:18,356 --> 00:58:19,646

I had a friend who said, you gotta look.

:

00:58:20,306 --> 00:58:21,806

you look at problems like barriers.

:

00:58:21,806 --> 00:58:24,656

You gotta look at a problem like

a mathematician or a rock climber,

:

00:58:25,256 --> 00:58:25,646

Diana Hill: Yeah.

:

00:58:26,756 --> 00:58:29,426

Glen Phillips: For them a problem

is a good day at work For them a

:

00:58:29,426 --> 00:58:34,496

problem is an exciting thing and a

song is that same thing, but the,

:

00:58:36,866 --> 00:58:37,496

it's,

:

00:58:39,716 --> 00:58:43,106

it can be amazing to see wow, these

are all the things that really

:

00:58:43,106 --> 00:58:47,246

delight me and for some reason I

haven't, I've been making every

:

00:58:47,246 --> 00:58:49,136

excuse possible not to touch them.

:

00:58:49,886 --> 00:58:50,366

and,

:

00:58:53,336 --> 00:58:58,226

It feels really good to get a reset

every once in a while and come outta

:

00:58:58,226 --> 00:59:03,986

the cave and then try to see if it can

stick a little longer this time, but

:

00:59:03,986 --> 00:59:07,766

at the same time, hold that there's

nothing that needs to be fixed, right?

:

00:59:09,146 --> 00:59:13,676

You come outta the cave as long as

you can and you're not getting graded.

:

00:59:13,736 --> 00:59:14,906

You're not getting judged.

:

00:59:15,446 --> 00:59:16,916

Diana Hill: And you

might go back in again.

:

00:59:16,976 --> 00:59:17,936

That's the pattern I go back in,

:

00:59:18,206 --> 00:59:19,826

Glen Phillips: But the

good thing is the habits.

:

00:59:20,441 --> 00:59:21,611

When you return to them,

:

00:59:21,821 --> 00:59:27,611

when you start practicing again,

like the guitar, never, like maybe

:

00:59:27,611 --> 00:59:30,851

your fingers hurt a little more,

but the guitar doesn't start moping

:

00:59:30,851 --> 00:59:32,561

saying like, how could you leave me?

:

00:59:32,561 --> 00:59:33,611

Why'd you do this?

:

00:59:33,611 --> 00:59:34,691

It's just there.

:

00:59:35,291 --> 00:59:40,301

They're all there and they're all

happy to be reengaged with, So

:

00:59:40,361 --> 00:59:41,531

Diana Hill: Yeah, it's beautiful.

:

00:59:41,531 --> 00:59:43,301

I feel that way about

working in my garden.

:

00:59:43,961 --> 00:59:48,161

like you can see the state of my mental

health by the state of my vegetable beds.

:

00:59:48,701 --> 00:59:49,181

I know, garden's sad

:

00:59:49,211 --> 00:59:50,051

Glen Phillips: our garden's sad.

:

00:59:50,101 --> 00:59:50,566

Diana Hill: But just how

:

00:59:50,626 --> 00:59:51,286

Glen Phillips: in the garden

:

00:59:51,346 --> 00:59:54,196

Diana Hill: Spending there versus how

much time am I spending on all the

:

00:59:54,196 --> 00:59:59,626

other things when this is actually the

thing that brings me so much joy and is.

:

01:00:00,631 --> 01:00:04,141

The antidepressant and the connected to

something bigger and the in the flow, and

:

01:00:04,141 --> 01:00:06,931

there's no product that is a commodity

:

01:00:07,321 --> 01:00:11,431

And I think most people maybe have

that, or maybe they don't even

:

01:00:11,431 --> 01:00:12,901

know that they have it already.

:

01:00:12,901 --> 01:00:17,311

They haven't given it value, they

haven't valued it, especially if it's not

:

01:00:17,311 --> 01:00:20,251

something that society puts a value on.

:

01:00:20,461 --> 01:00:25,471

music, maybe we're, okay a little bit,

but some other things, that we don't,

:

01:00:26,191 --> 01:00:28,051

especially in the US, put value on.

:

01:00:29,276 --> 01:00:30,181

Glen Phillips: Some, it's crazy.

:

01:00:30,481 --> 01:00:32,251

Being married to a teacher, right?

:

01:00:32,461 --> 01:00:36,211

It's like people will go, oh,

teachers, you're the best.

:

01:00:36,211 --> 01:00:37,021

You give it all.

:

01:00:37,021 --> 01:00:39,331

But society does not value them at all.

:

01:00:40,091 --> 01:00:40,261

Diana Hill: No.

:

01:00:40,261 --> 01:00:41,071

I'm married to one too.

:

01:00:41,071 --> 01:00:41,641

I know.

:

01:00:41,671 --> 01:00:41,911

Yeah.

:

01:00:41,916 --> 01:00:43,051

It's it's wild.

:

01:00:43,111 --> 01:00:44,101

It's wild.

:

01:00:44,101 --> 01:00:46,291

And yet they are raising our children.

:

01:00:46,291 --> 01:00:46,411

Yeah.

:

01:00:47,671 --> 01:00:47,911

yeah.

:

01:00:47,911 --> 01:00:50,611

Shout out to our teachers, but yeah.

:

01:00:51,091 --> 01:00:51,781

Okay,

:

01:00:52,411 --> 01:00:52,801

Glen Phillips: Thank you.

:

01:00:52,801 --> 01:00:55,291

That was, that, was that wandered?

:

01:00:55,756 --> 01:00:56,896

Diana Hill: I love a good wander.

:

01:00:56,956 --> 01:01:01,996

This, that, that means we got

somewhere in our wandering, you're

:

01:01:01,996 --> 01:01:03,766

gonna close us out with a song,

:

01:01:04,317 --> 01:01:05,427

Glen Phillips: This is the,

this is on my new album.

:

01:01:06,657 --> 01:01:06,792

which one is it?

:

01:01:07,287 --> 01:01:09,837

it's called The Sound of Drinking,

but the, oh, the title of the

:

01:01:09,837 --> 01:01:10,977

album There Is So Much Here.

:

01:01:10,977 --> 01:01:11,757

It comes from the song.

:

01:01:11,757 --> 01:01:12,027

Yeah.

:

01:01:12,032 --> 01:01:12,112

Yeah.

:

01:01:12,117 --> 01:01:12,597

Okay, got it.

:

01:01:12,597 --> 01:01:12,717

Yeah.

:

01:01:14,637 --> 01:01:16,737

Sorry, I'm not as well

versed as I should be.

:

01:01:16,737 --> 01:01:17,457

Quite all right.

:

01:01:17,457 --> 01:01:18,597

The studies You did well.

:

01:01:18,657 --> 01:01:19,017

Okay.

:

01:01:19,557 --> 01:01:20,547

But I do know the sound of drinking.

:

01:01:20,577 --> 01:01:20,787

Okay.

:

01:01:20,787 --> 01:01:21,117

Yeah.

:

01:01:36,307 --> 01:01:40,127

So this is what's like now on

:

01:01:42,757 --> 01:01:45,047

without the constant leaving

:

01:01:49,267 --> 01:01:51,047

to sit and sense the season.

:

01:02:02,427 --> 01:02:04,062

The sound of drinking water,

:

01:02:09,077 --> 01:02:11,047

turning of the leaves.

:

01:02:15,652 --> 01:02:21,787

The movement of them,

the spaces in between

:

01:02:26,772 --> 01:02:27,552

the long,

:

01:02:33,367 --> 01:02:34,272

the slow

:

01:02:37,297 --> 01:02:37,507

days

:

01:02:40,537 --> 01:02:41,227

there is

:

01:02:45,182 --> 01:02:47,317

That I had never seen

:

01:02:55,417 --> 01:02:57,157

head upon my shoulder

:

01:03:01,952 --> 01:03:03,032

slipping into.

:

01:03:08,422 --> 01:03:13,962

To my thoughts, listen to you breathe.

:

01:03:22,007 --> 01:03:23,777

Coffee in the bedroom,

:

01:03:28,422 --> 01:03:30,402

the swing of the pie.

:

01:03:35,032 --> 01:03:40,692

The freedom from the way

and the measuring of time,

:

01:03:46,352 --> 01:03:47,172

the long

:

01:03:53,132 --> 01:03:53,352

the.

:

01:04:00,707 --> 01:04:02,247

Is so much

:

01:04:04,957 --> 01:04:06,727

that I never seen

:

01:04:12,747 --> 01:04:13,487

the long.

:

01:04:27,002 --> 01:04:28,682

Is so much

:

01:04:31,471 --> 01:04:34,022

I never seen.

:

01:04:39,662 --> 01:04:41,702

There is so much

:

01:04:44,492 --> 01:04:47,252

I never seen.

:

01:05:03,492 --> 01:05:03,912

Go team.

:

01:05:05,922 --> 01:05:11,592

What is it about being two feet from

you singing that is so fucking amazing.

:

01:05:17,917 --> 01:05:17,918

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

01:05:17,918 --> 01:05:21,817

Thank you so much for listening to this

episode of the Wise Effort podcast.

:

01:05:21,997 --> 01:05:25,147

Wise effort is about you taking

your energy and putting it in the

:

01:05:25,147 --> 01:05:26,707

places that matter most to you.

:

01:05:27,187 --> 01:05:31,267

And when you do so you'll get to savor

the good of your life along the way.

:

01:05:32,407 --> 01:05:34,477

If you would like to become

a member of the Wise Effort

:

01:05:34,477 --> 01:05:37,357

podcast, go to wise effort.com.

:

01:05:37,927 --> 01:05:40,567

And if you liked this episode and it

would be helpful to somebody, please

:

01:05:40,567 --> 01:05:42,527

leave a review over at Podchaser.

:

01:05:42,596 --> 01:05:46,407

I would like to thank my team, my

partner, in all things, including

:

01:05:46,407 --> 01:05:48,297

the producer of this podcast, Craig.

:

01:05:48,837 --> 01:05:50,787

Ashley Hiatt, the podcast manager.

:

01:05:51,057 --> 01:05:53,857

And thank you to Ben Gould at

Bell and Branch for our music.

:

01:05:54,487 --> 01:05:57,667

This podcast is for informational

and entertainment purposes only.

:

01:05:57,717 --> 01:06:00,596

And it's not meant to be a substitute

for mental health treatments.

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Gain the wisdom and skills to help you put your energy into the life you want to live. I’m ready to help you get there.

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    About the Podcast

    Wise Effort
    The Science and Practice of Putting Your Energy Where It Matters Most
    Wise Effort with Dr. Diana Hill is a show about how to live wisely.

    You’ll learn how to put your energy into places that matter most to you while making a difference in the world.

    This show is for you if:
    ...you’re a high achiever feeling burned out from tasks that don’t matter.
    ...you want to invest your energy in fulfilling and sustainable ways.
    ...you seek holistic living without the pressure of a rigid wellness checklist.
    ...you care about your physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health.
    ...you appreciate science but are open to exploring spirituality and contemplative practices.
    ...you have an open, beginner’s mind.
    ...you believe there’s a better way to live and are ready to apply your wisdom.

    We don’t have to burn ourselves out or engage in things that are not worth it. We can put our energy where it matters most and savor the good along the way.

    Join us at the Wise Effort Show!

    About your host

    Profile picture for Diana Hill

    Diana Hill

    Diana Hill, PhD is a clinical psychologist, international trainer and sought-out speaker on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and compassion. Host of the podcast Wise Effort with Dr. Diana Hill and author of The Self-Compassion Daily Journal, The ACT Daily Journal, and the upcoming book Wise Effort, Diana works with organizations and individuals to develop psychological flexibility so that they can grow fulfilling and impactful lives.

    Integrating her over 20 years of meditation experience with yoga and psychological training, Diana guest teaches at InsightLA, Blue Spirit Costa Rica, PESI, Praxis Continuing Education, Yoga Soup and Insight Timer Meditation. She is on the board for the Institute for Better Health, and blogs for Psychology Today and Mindful.org. Diana practices what she preaches in her daily life as a mom of two boys and bee guardian. Go to drdianahill.com or her channels on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube (@drdianahill) to learn more.